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Apple deprecates Java

developer.apple.com

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Re: Apple deprecates Java

#191

Post by pak »

TheCondor wrote: post #180
biafra wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They should care because they sell hardware to people who use those platforms. They will sell less hardware to Java/Scala/Groovy/Clojure/Jython/JRuby/Beanshell programmers this way. The Mac platform is not important enough for Oracle to care. And Java Apps won't be in the App Store.

Why isn't the Mac platform important enough for Oracle to care? Seems to me that maybe it's big enough that Mac should be supported by Oracle. That would be a bit more ideal, get updates when all the platforms get updates.

Ugh, you just reminded me of the Java updater on windows machines. I hope that if Oracle does care, they at least care enough to get it right. And that Apple lets them still hook into Software Update.

Re: Apple deprecates Java

#192

Post by astrange »

lapusta wrote: post #6
apike wrote: post #2

People who follow Apple's developer communication have seen this coming for years. It'll be interesting to see if Oracle steps up to fill the gap or not.

There is already a port of OpenJDK: http://landonf.bikemonkey.org/static/soylatte/ Though it's not developed by Oracle employees afaik.

SoyLatte is nothing more than a build of the OpenJDK BSD Port. You can build that yourself.

Re: Apple deprecates Java

#193

Post by calloc »

moxiemk1 wrote: post #151
calloc wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would like to point out that Apple employs the guy that builds LLVM/clang and all those projects and yet they are still releasing the source code and everything out there for the public to use.

My appologies for accidental down vote instead of up vote. :(

Oh, I think I'll live :-). Apology accepted! Cheers mate!

Re: Apple deprecates Java

#194

Post by biafra »

umjames wrote: post #179
biafra wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They should care because they sell hardware to people who use those platforms. They will sell less hardware to Java/Scala/Groovy/Clojure/Jython/JRuby/Beanshell programmers this way. The Mac platform is not important enough for Oracle to care. And Java Apps won't be in the App Store.

So what other JVMs can you run on the Mac today? Will Apple open-source their JVM as a starting point for whomever wants to pick up that ball and run with it? How do you develop for Android on a Mac when their JVM finally disappears? I understand Android uses Dalvik, but will you be able to run Eclipse to get to that point?

You can run Soylatte. Landon Fuller ported it when there was no Java6 on 32bit Intel Macs. Soylatte now is the Openjdk7 port for Macosx.

Which is all good except for desktop Apps. It was impossible to run Netbeans, Eclipse or IntelliJ IDEA on top of Soylatte which only supports X11. Server side development was great with Soylatte and most likely still is. Thanks to Landon Fuller who earned an eternal place in my personal hall of fame with this :-)

Without him I would have had to work on Linux or Windows at that time.

Re: Apple deprecates Java

#195

Post by biafra »

TheCondor wrote: post #180
biafra wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They should care because they sell hardware to people who use those platforms. They will sell less hardware to Java/Scala/Groovy/Clojure/Jython/JRuby/Beanshell programmers this way. The Mac platform is not important enough for Oracle to care. And Java Apps won't be in the App Store.

Why isn't the Mac platform important enough for Oracle to care? Seems to me that maybe it's big enough that Mac should be supported by Oracle. That would be a bit more ideal, get updates when all the platforms get updates.

Even if Oracle supported Macs. Apple made it clear they won't allow Java Apps in the Mac App Store.

Re: Apple deprecates Java

#196

Post by CountSessine »

rbanffy wrote: post #184
CountSessine wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, their move from GCC to their own internally developed clang has way more to do with this than some walled-garden fantasy: http://archives.free.net.ph/message/20070721.195500.f37fa735... "GCC 4.2.1 will be the last release of GCC covered by version 2 of the GNU General Public License. All future releases will be released under GPL version 3." http://archives.free.net.ph/message/20071009.202219.6b725019... "T…

The GPLv3 does not apply to code compiled by GCC 4.2.1+. It applies to code you try to fork from it.

Actually, if you developed and distributed a non-GPL compatible plug-in for GCC, the GCC license prevents you from linking to the gcc stdlib without distributing built code under the GPL.

It's a peculiar exception - and Apple is almost certainly never going to be in violation of it. Still, the point is that Apple's lawyers are terrified that it could somehow taint iOS/OS X/iTunes if someone comes to believe that Apple might be in violation of it. Why take the chance? Clang is a compliant and fast c/c++ compiler at this point, and is mostly clean code (which is more than can be said of gcc).

Re: Apple deprecates Java

#197

Post by masklinn »

rbanffy wrote: post #117
masklinn wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That means Apple can extend them all they want without ever giving you, or their competition, any sources. It mostly means that they can use the libraries without having to open-source Xcode itself. A compiler is not exactly a competitive advantage for a company as big as Apple. > And yes, GCC is a very hard thing to integrate into tools and it's that way by design. Uh yes and?

> It mostly means that they can use the libraries without having to open-source Xcode itself. LGPL would be fine for that.

Yeah, but why bother? It's not like Apple has any reason to go LGPL (and actually, now that I looked it up Clang seems to use the same license as LLVM — which makes sense — and that's the University of Illinois/NCSA Open Source License not the 3-clauses BSD, which again makes sense considering LLVM got started at UIUC, so it's not even Apple who decided on the license of the LLVM suite and related tools, they got into LLVM years after the project started and just used the same license for the stuff they built on/around LLVM)

Re: Apple deprecates Java

#198

Post by jrockway »

stcredzero wrote: post #188
jrockway wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, Debian has done this since the early nineties, and yeah, it is nice to have guidelines (DFSG, etc.) that applications must follow to be a part of the platform. Having one entity responsible for system integration makes for a well-integrated system. I doubt what Apple comes up with will be as good as Debian, but at least it gives "the masses" the chance to use a well-integrated platform.

I'm thinking about going beyond what even Debian accomplished. As awesome as Debian is, it's based on unix-derived architecture from the 1970's. What about a successor to OS X with capabilities, orthogonal persistence, and no bootup? (App Store requirements and APIs could target easy migration to the new architecture.) Microsoft would have to follow or be left in the dust, but it would be travelling a path Apple is b…

it's based on unix-derived architecture from the 1970s

Isn't this like saying that we shouldn't use wheeled vehicles anymore, because wheels are a stone-age technology?

It's fun to reinvent the wheel, but the wheel has been around for a long time for a reason.

Re: Apple deprecates Java

#199

Post by yread »

stcredzero wrote: post #164
JeremyBanks wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hadn't thought of this in light of the App Store announcement, but apparently it's essential to do so. From the review guidelines: - Apps that use deprecated or optionally installed technologies (e.g., Java, Rosetta) will be rejected That's interesting.

I wonder if Apple is planning a "superior platform" strategy? If they can move to an App Store being the norm for Mac users and solve lots of deeply ingrained security and compatibility problems in the process, Microsoft/Windows is going to have quite a hard time following. The record for Apple accomplishing big architectural shifts with minimal pain (OS X, PowerPC -> x86) is much better than for Microsoft. (Vista) I…

I hope that Windows is not going to follow! I for one like to develop/use applications which require optional components

Re: Apple deprecates Java

#200

Post by jon914 »

cosmicray wrote: post #105
thought_alarm wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it means that Apple is not bringing Java 7 to OS X. It doesn't prevent someone else from bringing Java 7 to OS X, nor does it mean that the existing support for Java 6 is going anywhere.

It also means that Apple has to apply fewer engineering resources to supporting Java. OS X and iOS, full steam ahead !

For lengths of time, they only had one engineer on it by the name of Mike Swingler.

I can't speak for that today, but my source for this info was the Java Swing team themselves since they talked all the time with the Java "team" at Apple.

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