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The Awful German Language (1880)

cs.utah.edu

251–260 of 317 posts

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#251
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I speak 8 languages from many separate groups (Germanic, Romance, Slavic, Sino-Tibetan, Japanese), and my impression is that languages truly put constraints on one's ability to formulate thoughts. Of course, mentalese, the unspoken one, is different, independent, but it's rare people retain it to their older age and by then prevailing cultural/linguistic currents shape their thoughts. Sapir-Whorf might be discredited…

Would you please give some examples where you've found "that languages truly put constraints on one's ability to formulate thoughts"?

For a really eccentric example see:

https://aymara.org/biblio/html/igr/igr3.html

Or just use of 無 in (ancient) Chinese for a simple example (in the sense of "unasking the question").

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#252
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fascinating. If you were to pick an optimal global language - which would it be?

Korean certainly. Very well modernized, from the already simple chinese language (not the writing, just the spoken language), transported into simple and regular syllables. Extremely easy to learn for foreigners or aliens from other planets. The shape of the letters mimic how you speak them, the three major families - | or O. horizontal, vertical or round, like in chinese earth-water paintings. It's much more regular…

A good language is not necessarily one that is easy to learn. The difficulty may be due, for example, to a fine-grained vocabulary, the power to concisely express nuances, or the rich cultural background. Classical Greek, for example, is not the easiest language to learn from scratch, but it is no doubt one of the most subtle and expressive languages known to the mankind.

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#253

German is not that hard, specially coming from English, which is a germanic language itself. The Michel Thomas learning audio programs are fantastic for getting a grasp of the language. If you read and read and watch and watch TV,without analyzing what you do you get naturally the feeling of the language, without the suffering. Mark Twain did what 99% of Germans,Austrians,Swiss are never going to do. Stop and overthi…

I don't mind most of German except for gender+case+plural+whatever variables giving you like eight different forms of "the" and similar complexity for "a" and for adjective endings, and even impacting suffixes for the noun (end declinations). Having to think ahead to "okay what's the gender of the noun I'm gonna use three words from now...now factor in the case implied by the preposition preceding it...okay it's 'dem…

> Having to think ahead to "okay what's the gender of the noun I'm gonna use three words from now.

Now, that's interesting. I'm a native speaker of German, and just the other day I realized that one of the mistakes I keep making in English is to make the "a/an" distinction not based on phonetics, but on agreement with the noun, disregarding any words preceding it: I know that it's "an error", not "a error"; but then I also tend to say (or write) "an common error".

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#254
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet we have a wide variety of programming languages, and switch between them as the need arises for a better fit to the problem domain we're working in. With the wide variety of things like number systems in different languages, wouldn't it make sense that using some languages might be better for mathematical communication, and others maybe not offer the precision required to communicate everything necessary? It woul…

That's a softer form of it which is fairly obviously true; a language with no words for weather will obviously limit discussion of the weather forecast. That's a bit different to whether it limits your ability to think about those things though.

And now for the forecast of the local atmosphere state: In the morning, the yellow ball in the sky will be hidden by areas of water aerosol. Around noon, water will fall from the sky.

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#255
post #237
post #182

As a native speaker I can confirm the observations of Mark Twain. What is ignored in such humorous tirades is that every human speaker will push information density to the very limit of understandability. In every language. They will use all the tools available. Sure, the German case system is getting weaker as the centuries go by. And in some situations you will wonder why it's used still. But that doesn't mean the…

Why don't you think removing genders will make the language easier? I studied German in college and memorizing these was my only complaint.

Not being too much of a linguist but ever ready to expound on the concept of economy in speech: We have a strong pressure to minimize communication effort both for speakers and for listeners. I would assume that genders help disambiguate and aid the listener discern words with higher certainty without increasing the syllable count.

Our mind builds hypotheses of the words to follow while listening to a sentence. Without this, we couldn't follow a conversation. You can decide faster on what you heard the more the words preceding a noun preclose on the choice of noun. So gender can make communication more robust over a noisy channel, or more compact over a clear channel.

In the midst of a German sentence, some nouns will be precluded because they would be impossible due to gendered articles and adjectives. This lessens the cognitive load (of the trained listener) or conversely allows omitting words when the gender narrows down the selection enough.

I'll go further out on that limb conjecturing that if you haven't been exposed to a gendered language as a kid, that facility will be untrained and quite the bother to acquire as an adult. If acquiring it as an adult is possible at all.

After all that wild guessing, I should close with the observation that in this case German would be more difficult to learn than ungendered languages, _for untrained adults_.

To close off (and to partially answer your question) I'll just say that gender takes little neurons overall in the habit that is language. Whether it'd come out a net plus in syllable economy I can't say.

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It amazes me how many people claim English is easy to learn People think english is simple because we don't have the gender+conjugation+declension system of many languages. So initially, english appears simple. A boat is a boat is a boat. But everywhere else - from spelling to grammar to phonetics, english is irregular and has so many exceptions that it really requires effort to become native or even fluent. One co…

"simple" is not synonymous with "easy to learn". There is some research that suggests that it is easier for adults to learn isolating languages, like English and Mandarin, than it is for adults to learn synthetic languages like German, Russian, or Arabic. In other words, adults are better at learning lists of words than systems for constructing words. The fewer grammatical morphemes they need to learn, the faster the…

Interesting! Can you recommend papers on that?

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Texas German has a less funny word for airplane: Luftschiff.

A Luftschiff is not an airplane, it's a Zeppelin because it floats in the air like a ship in the water.

Maybe it is in Texas German

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#258
post #31

Also it seems there is a "standard" form of german since 1996: https://www.fluentin3months.com/german-hard-to-learn/

The German orthography was reformed in 1996. That did not change the vocabulary, grammar, pronunciation etc, i.e. the language itself. Like any other natural language, German evolves naturally.

Also, the orthography had been standardized since 1901.

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#259

German is not that hard, specially coming from English, which is a germanic language itself. The Michel Thomas learning audio programs are fantastic for getting a grasp of the language. If you read and read and watch and watch TV,without analyzing what you do you get naturally the feeling of the language, without the suffering. Mark Twain did what 99% of Germans,Austrians,Swiss are never going to do. Stop and overthi…

>Mark Twain did what 99% of Germans,Austrians,Swiss are never going to do. Stop and overthink it too much. The Swiss do not speak German at all. They speak various forms of Swiss-German dialects, which are related to German, but altogether different languages. And very wisely, Swiss-German dialects have entirely done away with all the useless grammatical garbage German is settled with. As a result, Swiss-German - whi…

> The Swiss do not speak German at all.

> They speak various forms of Swiss-German dialects, which are related to German, but altogether different languages.

These statements are at best wrong, but actually not even that.

There is no hard difference between languages and dialects. Whether a variety gets called "language" or "dialect" is mostly a matter of convention.

The Swiss German dialects are obviously not Standard German. But neither are the dialects spoken in Germany. They are still German dialects.

Also, I'm pretty sure that all German-speaking Swiss also speak Standard German even if it's not their native dialect.

> Yet somehow, you can perfectly express complex thoughts in Swiss-German and still be understood, so all I've read in this thread about how grammatical complexity is a form of error-correction

There is a difference between "you cannot express complex thoughts in Swiss German" and "Swiss German does not have a particular method of error correction that Standard German has". It's not like Swiss German were just a simplified variant of Standard German.

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#260
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That specific example points to the root cause of most English pronunciation weirdness - an insistence on preserving original spelling for loanwords even if they come from languages with very different orthography. "Rogue" and "chef" are both French loanwords that English still spells as if they were French, not to mention all the Latin loanwords that still give middle-schoolers endless pain.

Interestingly, "chief" is the same word as "chef" just imported from the Normans. French had a consonant shift, while English did not, and then imported the word again with the new pronunciation and spelling.

A consonant shift from "ie" to "e"?
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