Amazon Warehouse Workers Lose Bonuses, Stock Awards for Raises • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers Lose Bonuses, Stock Awards for Raises

#141

Post by lovich » Thu, Oct 04, 2018, 3:48 AM UTC

endtime wrote: post #111

gnopgnip wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Most of the warehouse workers are now making _less_ than they were before due to union dues. If most of the workers are making less now, why would they vote to unionize? Before the union formed did workers get vacation and sick time, or were their unaddressed safety issues, or was management treating employees unfairly? In the US it is a lot of work to convince people to form a union even when the benefits are clear…

> If most of the workers are making less now, why would they vote to unionize? You seem to be confusing the direction of time...

What we're the expected benefits of joining the union that they didn't get then? For instance in most low level jobs I've had like that, just getting a consistent schedule would be worth half the hourly wage, without a bonus all. You'd be able to have a life or a second job. When you don't have a union you get companies ignoring even basics like that and doing random scheduling with leaves you with the inability to do anything but be ready for work, without being paid for the time.

There are tons of little things like this that all add up to value that's just as good as money and that we take for granted by being in the tech world

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers Lose Bonuses, Stock Awards for Raises

#142

Post by etatoby » Thu, Oct 04, 2018, 3:49 AM UTC

sethammons wrote: post #41

ravitation wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A company doesn't become adversarial with its workforce because of unions; a company is forced to treat its workforce more as an equal because of unions. The adversarial nature of the relationship between a workforce and its company is not a result of unions, it exists without unions. It's just that, without unions, companies are free to largely ignore the demands of individual workers. Control over compensation and…

> A company doesn't become adversarial with its workforce because of unions; a company is forced to treat its workforce more as an equal because of unions. I'm not convinced. My brother's work has a warehouse. The warehouse unionized (a large push by two folks who are no longer there). Most of the warehouse workers are now making _less_ than they were before due to union dues. There are guys that my brother would lov…

> This union exists to grow itself and for no other reason.

This is the case for most unions in Italy, for example, where their existence is protected by law. It's a very sad state of affairs.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers Lose Bonuses, Stock Awards for Raises

#143

Post by cheeze » Thu, Oct 04, 2018, 3:50 AM UTC

manigandham wrote: post #78

This is a direct attack on competitors, designed to enlist the help of the federal government to raise payroll and put pressure on arch nemesis Walmart and any other company that has lots of retail other jobs that are not conducive to automation. Remember that Amazon thinks 5 years ahead, and they waited for the perfect PR and political threshold to announce these changes and capitalize on the news.

> This is a direct attack on competitors, designed to enlist the help of the federal government to raise payroll and put pressure on arch nemesis Walmart and any other company that has lots of retail other jobs that are not conducive to automation.

Good. I hope they force their competitors to pay employees better wages.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers Lose Bonuses, Stock Awards for Raises

#144

Post by lovich » Thu, Oct 04, 2018, 3:50 AM UTC

ericd wrote: post #137

crooked-v wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet presumably the union would be quite happy with across-the-board raises, so the complaint tries to casually gloss over the implied conflict with management about who deserves a more limited supply of raises.

Why should the union decide who gets raises, rather than the manager whose job it is to monitor and grade the performance of his employees?

If the management gets to decide who gets raises, why wouldn't they give it to themselves. You've never seen companies do layoffs right before the end of the quarter so management can get raises, and then immediately go on a hiring spree when the new quarter starts so they can get the work done again?

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers Lose Bonuses, Stock Awards for Raises

#145

Post by confounded » Thu, Oct 04, 2018, 3:51 AM UTC

sethammons wrote: post #41

ravitation wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A company doesn't become adversarial with its workforce because of unions; a company is forced to treat its workforce more as an equal because of unions. The adversarial nature of the relationship between a workforce and its company is not a result of unions, it exists without unions. It's just that, without unions, companies are free to largely ignore the demands of individual workers. Control over compensation and…

> A company doesn't become adversarial with its workforce because of unions; a company is forced to treat its workforce more as an equal because of unions. I'm not convinced. My brother's work has a warehouse. The warehouse unionized (a large push by two folks who are no longer there). Most of the warehouse workers are now making _less_ than they were before due to union dues. There are guys that my brother would lov…

To be fair, it sounds like your brother is dealing with ‘the other end’ of the union. He’s not necessarily supposed to think it’s a great idea.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers Lose Bonuses, Stock Awards for Raises

#146

Post by etatoby » Thu, Oct 04, 2018, 3:52 AM UTC

bradleyjg wrote: post #91

crooked-v wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So who's running the union? Some measure of nonsensicality exists here in the idea of a union composed entirely of warehouse workers that is somehow magically acting against the best interests of those warehouse workers.

The fallacy in your reasoning is that there is a unitary “interests of those warehouse workers”. Collective decision making and fiduciary duties are directly contrary to each other but unions are supposed to feature both. The way the circle is squared is that unions don’t in fact represent all their members’ interests, only those of 50% + 1.

> only those of 50% + 1

If only! In reality, long-living unions create such a layered bureaucratic structure that they don't represent most workers in most matters anymore (case in point: unions in Italy, since decades ago when they were protected by law.)

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers Lose Bonuses, Stock Awards for Raises

#147

Post by confounded » Thu, Oct 04, 2018, 3:54 AM UTC

bradleyjg wrote: post #91

crooked-v wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So who's running the union? Some measure of nonsensicality exists here in the idea of a union composed entirely of warehouse workers that is somehow magically acting against the best interests of those warehouse workers.

The fallacy in your reasoning is that there is a unitary “interests of those warehouse workers”. Collective decision making and fiduciary duties are directly contrary to each other but unions are supposed to feature both. The way the circle is squared is that unions don’t in fact represent all their members’ interests, only those of 50% + 1.

In my (limited, biased) experience the primary interest of workers is the same everywhere.

Hint: it pays off both mortgages and bar tabs.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers Lose Bonuses, Stock Awards for Raises

#148

Post by barry-cotter » Thu, Oct 04, 2018, 3:55 AM UTC

AlexandrB wrote: post #136

barry-cotter wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you look at a graph of historical workplace deaths you can’t tell where OSHA was enacted. There’s no change in the rate of decrease of workplace deaths. As far as minimum wage laws go less than 5% of the US workforce gets paid minimum wage, and unpaid internships are both obviously beneficial to those who take them and ah, skirting the law to all parties’ benefit. Minimum wage laws are a great way to reduce workfo…

> unpaid internships are both obviously beneficial to those who take them and ah, skirting the law to all parties’ benefit. Unpaid internships are a great way to gate off poor people from high-paying jobs. No matter how beneficial they are to the intern, if said intern can't afford rent and food while on your internship it's simply not an option for them. Unpaid internships have no place in a society that wants to co…

If you can afford to not work for three or four years while getting a Bachelor’s and the tens of thousands of dollars you pay in tuition you can afford to do a six month unpaid internship.

What you say is absolutely true but if unpaid internships are a problems journalism schools and other forms of credentialist gatekeeping are much worse.

If the choice existed would you rather go to Columbia Journalism School it spend two years working for the New York Post unpaid? Wouldn’t you get more and more valuable experience as a dogsbody for a fashion photographer than doing a degree in photography?

Credentialism is bad for the sane reason unpaid internships are bad but does vastly more damage to oppprtunity.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers Lose Bonuses, Stock Awards for Raises

#149

Post by sgc » Thu, Oct 04, 2018, 3:57 AM UTC

PretzelFisch wrote: post #86

InTheArena wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not always true. For example, the union relationship with Eastern Airline, where the union decided that it was better to eventually kill the airline in exchange for a better contract today. (Reference - Hard Landing by Thomas Petzinger). Unions are yet another human organization. Like all human organizations, it in-enviably becomes about sustaining itself, and that sustaining and power structure can become as…

In most cases it's best to get the money today rather then wait for a future, that may not come to exist.

Kill the cow to eat, who cares about the milk of tomorrow.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers Lose Bonuses, Stock Awards for Raises

#150

Post by Spooky23 » Thu, Oct 04, 2018, 4:03 AM UTC

com2kid wrote: post #40

Spooky23 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, you mean that drinking cases of Diet Coke and beer all day and working 18 hours a day for your 20s May have long term health impacts?

People who worked as teenagers working at ice cream parlors report life long pain in their dominant wrist. Is that something you expect a 16 year old to know is going to happen? Biomechanics is a complicated subject.

Totally agree — my sarcasm may not have been clear.

I worked on a farm throwing hay from 12-17. I ended up needing back surgery at 25.