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Alphabet's cyber unit Jigsaw introduces a new security app to bust censorship

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Re: Alphabet's cyber unit Jigsaw introduces a new security app to bust censorship

#131

Post by anotherevan »

i_phish_cats wrote: post #116
bad_user wrote: post #87

Good job Google. I'm a very harsh critique of Google due to the threat they pose for privacy, however here they are doing a good thing, along the lines of the public DNS servers they provide, which I know have helped people [1]. Having your requests go through Google is not ideal, however not many people have the capacity to search for better, but more obscure solutions. Also this isn't about privacy, but about worki…

And yet another part of the company is creating a censored version so that the CCP will let them back into china.

Yes, that irony was not lost on me either. I was thinking that someone should introduce Google's left and right hands to each other.

Re: Alphabet's cyber unit Jigsaw introduces a new security app to bust censorship

#132

Post by tgsovlerkhgsel »

thisgoodlife wrote: post #117
bubblethink wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is about preventing dns manipulation attacks. That assumes that a DNS server (like 8.8.8.8) is generally accessible, but an adversary is trying to manipulate the responses. In China, you anyway can't access regular global dns servers. You need to use official dns supported by the government. So the question of dns manipulation is moot.

This is not true. I tried 8.8.8.8 and it worked when I visited China 2 years ago.

"Worked" does not mean freely accessible. It means you received DNS responses when you sent DNS requests there, but there's a high chance the responses weren't coming from Google, and that encrypted connections would fail.

However, it seems that Google hosts the encrypted endpoint separately anyways, not on 8.8.8.8.

Re: Alphabet's cyber unit Jigsaw introduces a new security app to bust censorship

#133

Post by ebullientocelot »

zelon88 wrote: post #108
jamescostian wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't like theft. It's more like the law says you can't read certain things, so a printing company adjusts the books they print for the people of that country. Obviously they don't want to censor things, but they also want to profit. They can either be totally censored or partially censored and still make money. Are you asking for them to give up and accept total censorship and forfeit money? If not, what would…

China will steal any technology you put in their country. Not only will they steal it, but they'll use it for whatever they want. Right now China is talking to Google because they lack the technological prerequisites to make their goals happen by themselves. If you want to see a Chinese Google competitor, just let Google get a shoe in the door and wait a couple years. Then when China has what it wants they'll dismiss…

China certainly isn't technologically inept. They are playing a game of catchup that is mad impressive, makes plenty of sense that they'd seek to "appropriate" IP instead of reinventing the wheel.

Re: Alphabet's cyber unit Jigsaw introduces a new security app to bust censorship

#134

Post by [deleted] »

i_phish_cats wrote: post #116
bad_user wrote: post #87

Good job Google. I'm a very harsh critique of Google due to the threat they pose for privacy, however here they are doing a good thing, along the lines of the public DNS servers they provide, which I know have helped people [1]. Having your requests go through Google is not ideal, however not many people have the capacity to search for better, but more obscure solutions. Also this isn't about privacy, but about worki…

And yet another part of the company is creating a censored version so that the CCP will let them back into china.

[deleted]

Re: Alphabet's cyber unit Jigsaw introduces a new security app to bust censorship

#136

Post by bduerst »

i_phish_cats wrote: post #116
bad_user wrote: post #87

Good job Google. I'm a very harsh critique of Google due to the threat they pose for privacy, however here they are doing a good thing, along the lines of the public DNS servers they provide, which I know have helped people [1]. Having your requests go through Google is not ideal, however not many people have the capacity to search for better, but more obscure solutions. Also this isn't about privacy, but about worki…

And yet another part of the company is creating a censored version so that the CCP will let them back into china.

I mean, China's the one censoring it. Google could link to the censored websites in the results but that would be a terrible user experience. Wouldn't it be better to do what they do with DMCA takedowns in the US, where they tell you how many results have been removed and why?

And Google already censors search results in the EU with the right to be forgotten, where they've received 41,000 requests from EU politicians, so there is precedence in working with local governments

Re: Alphabet's cyber unit Jigsaw introduces a new security app to bust censorship

#137

Post by rrix2 »

bduerst wrote: post #136
i_phish_cats wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet another part of the company is creating a censored version so that the CCP will let them back into china.

I mean, China's the one censoring it. Google could link to the censored websites in the results but that would be a terrible user experience. Wouldn't it be better to do what they do with DMCA takedowns in the US, where they tell you how many results have been removed and why? And Google already censors search results in the EU with the right to be forgotten, where they've received 41,000 requests from EU politicians…

They also tied every search request with a government ID according to some reports and one must assume they’re willing and able to share that with the Chinese state security. As far as I’m aware the EU isn’t targeting minority citizens for increased surveillance like the Chinese state is doing to the Uighurs either.

Re: Alphabet's cyber unit Jigsaw introduces a new security app to bust censorship

#138

Post by PhasmaFelis »

jamescostian wrote: post #127
PhasmaFelis wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Obviously they don't want to censor things, but they also want to profit. I'm not seeing the moral difference between this and the grandparent post. "We don't want to be evil, but they offered us a lot of money, so what could we do?"

Is google existing in China with censorship an "evil" thing? Any alternative in China will need the same censorship, so why is Google evil? I think we can all agree that people (and companies) being censored are not evil just because they must censor themselves - rather, the heads of the country that require censorship are the evil ones. If you're a police officer and you have to arrest people for some stupid law you…

This argument boils down to "What I'm doing is evil, but someone else would do it if I refused, so I might as well get paid for it." It's basically the Nuremberg Defense, but without even the threat of punishment, only desire for profit.

To answer your question: the police officer may not be evil, but she's certainly doing evil. It may be possible to make a coherent argument that the harm done is outweighed by the good the cop can do in her community if she toes the line and keeps her job. I don't think you can make that argument when the harm is "willingly abetting an oppressive government on a massive scale" and the benefit is "we make a whole bunch of money."

Re: Alphabet's cyber unit Jigsaw introduces a new security app to bust censorship

#139

Post by throwwedoct »

x220 wrote: post #123
throwwedoct wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who needs camps when you can drone strike them? [1] > In 2014, former CIA and NSA director Michael Hayden said in a public debate, “We kill people based on metadata.” > According to multiple reports and leaks, death-by-metadata could be triggered, without even knowing the target’s name, if too many derogatory checks appear on their profile. “Armed military aged males” exhibiting suspicious behavior in the wrong place…

What America does has no effect on the morality of what China does. This is whataboutism at its finest.

GP was asking how this is different than what the NSA does. The poster above me said it was because China acts on that information, but the US does not.

I provided evidence America does act on information.

This is perspective.

Re: Alphabet's cyber unit Jigsaw introduces a new security app to bust censorship

#140

Post by throwwedoct »

x220 wrote: post #122
bhtru wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a difference to how the NSA does same albeit with a time delay instead of being instantaneous?

The NSA and USA do not have a recent history of murdering tens of millions of its own citizens. What America does has no effect on the morality of what China does. This is whataboutism at its finest.

Saying “whataboutism” is not a defense for hypocrisy.

But I suppose you’re right, the US only murders tens of millions of foreigners.

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