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Alphabet's cyber unit Jigsaw introduces a new security app to bust censorship

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Re: Alphabet's cyber unit Jigsaw introduces a new security app to bust censorship

#121

Post by x220 »

samat wrote: post #55

The problem Intra solves is very real. MiTM attack on the DNS are the simplest ways to censor internet access and they are widely used in many countries. I do despise google's efforts in dismantling any privacy which is left on the internet, but this particular program is very good. I don't get this attitude of 'don't take a cake from the devil'. A) google is not devil, just another megacorp B) don't be blinded with…

If Google considers handing off private info to China, which is known to execute people with disliked political beliefs, it's not self-evidently wrong to compare Google and their executives to the devil.

Edit: if you want to downvote, please also reply with your ideas and tell me why you disagree with me.

Re: Alphabet's cyber unit Jigsaw introduces a new security app to bust censorship

#122

Post by x220 »

bhtru wrote: post #72
xg15 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> China has a nation-wide firewall blocking any Google service, thereby forcing Google to negotiate how their service works if they want to make money there. So if the Chinese demand they get real-time access to all information Google has stored about anyone, or Google gets banned from China, they should do that too?

Is there a difference to how the NSA does same albeit with a time delay instead of being instantaneous?

The NSA and USA do not have a recent history of murdering tens of millions of its own citizens.

What America does has no effect on the morality of what China does. This is whataboutism at its finest.

Re: Alphabet's cyber unit Jigsaw introduces a new security app to bust censorship

#123

Post by x220 »

throwwedoct wrote: post #112
tony101 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NSA doesn't send people to "reeducation camps" because of their political or religious beliefs.[1] [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/08/world/asia/china-uighur-m...

Who needs camps when you can drone strike them? [1] > In 2014, former CIA and NSA director Michael Hayden said in a public debate, “We kill people based on metadata.” > According to multiple reports and leaks, death-by-metadata could be triggered, without even knowing the target’s name, if too many derogatory checks appear on their profile. “Armed military aged males” exhibiting suspicious behavior in the wrong place…

What America does has no effect on the morality of what China does. This is whataboutism at its finest.

Re: Alphabet's cyber unit Jigsaw introduces a new security app to bust censorship

#124

Post by zelon88 »

lallysingh wrote: post #119
zelon88 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China will steal any technology you put in their country. Not only will they steal it, but they'll use it for whatever they want. Right now China is talking to Google because they lack the technological prerequisites to make their goals happen by themselves. If you want to see a Chinese Google competitor, just let Google get a shoe in the door and wait a couple years. Then when China has what it wants they'll dismiss…

What technology do you think will be on Chinese soil from this? There's no reason to bring source code over.

Do you really think a nation state (especially a psuedo-communist one) that involves itself in a project like this with specific requirements (like backdoors) is going to let it be housed off-site? Do you really think they won't demand to let their engineers all over it? Inside and out?

The whole reason AMD exists is because IBM wouldn't do business with Intel without an alternate domestic supplier.

In government manufacturing here in the US we can't even put CUI in the Cloud if the end-user is the government. And we're democratic. Can you imagine the export controls on Chinese technology?

The chances that China WON'T see the source code are zero.

Re: Alphabet's cyber unit Jigsaw introduces a new security app to bust censorship

#125

Post by lallysingh »

zelon88 wrote: post #124
lallysingh wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What technology do you think will be on Chinese soil from this? There's no reason to bring source code over.

Do you really think a nation state (especially a psuedo-communist one) that involves itself in a project like this with specific requirements (like backdoors) is going to let it be housed off-site? Do you really think they won't demand to let their engineers all over it? Inside and out? The whole reason AMD exists is because IBM wouldn't do business with Intel without an alternate domestic supplier. In government man…

The compiled binaries can end up in a Chinese DC, but the source? I don't understand why. I don't think Google's interested in being replaced.

Re: Alphabet's cyber unit Jigsaw introduces a new security app to bust censorship

#126

Post by mygo »

thisgoodlife wrote: post #117
bubblethink wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is about preventing dns manipulation attacks. That assumes that a DNS server (like 8.8.8.8) is generally accessible, but an adversary is trying to manipulate the responses. In China, you anyway can't access regular global dns servers. You need to use official dns supported by the government. So the question of dns manipulation is moot.

This is not true. I tried 8.8.8.8 and it worked when I visited China 2 years ago.

that’s what they wanted you to think ;)

Re: Alphabet's cyber unit Jigsaw introduces a new security app to bust censorship

#127

Post by jamescostian »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #100
jamescostian wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't like theft. It's more like the law says you can't read certain things, so a printing company adjusts the books they print for the people of that country. Obviously they don't want to censor things, but they also want to profit. They can either be totally censored or partially censored and still make money. Are you asking for them to give up and accept total censorship and forfeit money? If not, what would…

> Obviously they don't want to censor things, but they also want to profit. I'm not seeing the moral difference between this and the grandparent post. "We don't want to be evil, but they offered us a lot of money, so what could we do?"

Is google existing in China with censorship an "evil" thing? Any alternative in China will need the same censorship, so why is Google evil? I think we can all agree that people (and companies) being censored are not evil just because they must censor themselves - rather, the heads of the country that require censorship are the evil ones.

If you're a police officer and you have to arrest people for some stupid law you disagree with, are you evil, or are the people requiring you to perform that arrest evil?

Re: Alphabet's cyber unit Jigsaw introduces a new security app to bust censorship

#128

Post by r3bl »

x220 wrote: post #121
samat wrote: post #55

The problem Intra solves is very real. MiTM attack on the DNS are the simplest ways to censor internet access and they are widely used in many countries. I do despise google's efforts in dismantling any privacy which is left on the internet, but this particular program is very good. I don't get this attitude of 'don't take a cake from the devil'. A) google is not devil, just another megacorp B) don't be blinded with…

If Google considers handing off private info to China, which is known to execute people with disliked political beliefs, it's not self-evidently wrong to compare Google and their executives to the devil. Edit: if you want to downvote, please also reply with your ideas and tell me why you disagree with me.

I've seen no comment here ever praising Google's actions in China here, and I'm very doubtful I will.

That said, this particular product, which has nothing to do Google's business with China, is absolutely crucial for people facing censorship elsewhere, and it is without a doubt a morally good product. You can't even claim that they're doing it solely to gather DNS data (for whatever reason), because if they were making an attempt at that, they would sure as fuck wouldn't allow you to choose Cloudflare.

You can sit here and call that hypocritical because of Google's relationship in China, but that doesn't make their solution any less good to those facing censorship. Nobody else stepped up. Jigsaw did, and they deserve to be thanked for that.

Even if someone's intentions are evil in nature, you're not going to make them less evil by saying "who cares, you're evil" whenever they do something good.

Re: Alphabet's cyber unit Jigsaw introduces a new security app to bust censorship

#129

Post by jamescostian »

zelon88 wrote: post #108
jamescostian wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't like theft. It's more like the law says you can't read certain things, so a printing company adjusts the books they print for the people of that country. Obviously they don't want to censor things, but they also want to profit. They can either be totally censored or partially censored and still make money. Are you asking for them to give up and accept total censorship and forfeit money? If not, what would…

China will steal any technology you put in their country. Not only will they steal it, but they'll use it for whatever they want. Right now China is talking to Google because they lack the technological prerequisites to make their goals happen by themselves. If you want to see a Chinese Google competitor, just let Google get a shoe in the door and wait a couple years. Then when China has what it wants they'll dismiss…

> China is talking to Google because they lack the technological prerequisites to make their goals happen by themselves

Seriously? China has 1.3B people and you don't think that any of them can do the same things people in USA can do?

> technologically inept country

Add up the populations of Europe and USA and you'll still be hundreds of millions away from that of China alone. And you still believe China is technologically inept?

I can't tell if this is satire or if you just hate China. Do you have any measurements demonstrating the ineptitude you mention?

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