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Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

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Re: Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

#61
post #47
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does make me wonder what screening for test drivers they use.

Disagree. If you screen your test drivers, you no longer have adequate testing. Your test drivers need to be representative (as much as possible) of the general population.

No, Waymo's test drivers aren't supposed to be representative of future customers, they're supposed to babysit the cars until drivers are no longer needed at all. That's why their Firefly prototype didn't even have a steering wheel.

Re: Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

#62

Poor UX, poor safety controls. At this stage in the game, these prototype vehicles should absolutely detect whether or not their operators are paying attention, since they’re part of the safety system of the vehicle. Also, did they not learn from Uber’s fatal crash? A sole operator in these vehicles is a terrible idea. One person to monitor road conditions and one person to operate any computer equipment should be th…

Uber’s fatal crash was caused by a crazy, suicidal person who literally stepped in front of the car. A human driver couldn’t have avoided her.

That is completely false. Any decent camera or eyesight from the car's point of view would have seen the pedestrian well in advance enough to avoid that crash. Uber's fatal crash was caused by the car being programmed to ignore stationary/slow moving objects in the way.

Re: Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

#63
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Waymo wants their test drivers to be attentive and alert, so that when the cars are ready, the passengers don't have to be. They should really have two test drivers there, though.

Not in all cases perhaps though to mimic real-life usage, as then this scenario may not have been uncovered until mass adoption; I could understand a 'real test driver' and a passive/non-engaged safety person in passenger seat - what can they do but wake a driver who falls asleep though, and perhaps then wake them before they accidentally engage manual mode while asleep?

They're not supposed to mimic real-life; Waymo's plan is to not have drivers at all.

A passenger can hold the steering wheel until the driver comes to. Or they can even use a car with two sets of pedals, they're common in driving schools.

Re: Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

#64
post #50
post #22

I feel like an old man shaking my first at the slow march of inevitable progress - but - this is exactly why 'drive assist' or any other flavor of automated driving that is not 100% automation is not useful to me. If I have to pay attention and babysit piloting the vehicle, I might as well be driving (assuming I'm of sound enough mind and body to actually drive).

How do you feel about cruise control? Or automatic transmissions? I like semi-autonomous systems because they still take some of the cognitive load off of driving. Paying attention is still easier than paying attention plus constantly having to adjust speed/steering/etc.

> How do you feel about cruise control? Or automatic transmissions?

Cruise control is great. I still control where the car goes though. I still have to be 100% attentive to what the vehicle is doing. At no point am I relying on the vehicle to keep me safe.

Automatic transmissions are great too, except for very specific use cases.

> I like semi-autonomous systems because they still take some of the cognitive load off of driving. Paying attention is still easier than paying attention plus constantly having to adjust speed/steering/etc.

I think I would be more open to 'smart' information systems - beeps when leaving a lane, back up cameras, etc. Anything that takes piloting control is a step too far for me at this time. Cruise control is largely proven to work. I never worry about it failing when I use it.

Re: Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

#65
While no serious injuries here make it easier to be objective about it, I think it's actually good to see one of the suspicions about self-driving cars actually borne out in real life testing: that this is an area where progression/safety isn't a smooth linear progression but more of a step function or something with a valley before rising. That means that Waymo's approach is in fact the best one: either stick to level 1, maybe a bit of level 2, or bite the bullet and go directly to 5 and figure out how to bring statistical rates there combined with the positive utility function to a point where they're flat out superior to human drivers, and then sell that. This is actually kind of unusual for a lot of the history of tech I think, where the (not unwarranted) common wisdom tends to be more that gradual improvement and live testing and maturing over years is more effective then aiming for big leaps all at once. But there are exceptions that prove rules and this seems to be one of them: that overall safety is a combined function of human driver quality to car AI quality, but they're non-linearly inversely linked in that the more the AI takes over the more the human loses ability to stay focus and practiced, and furthermore has to deal with context shifts which are inherently slow and would inherently be required exactly when it's most serious. So it's a lot more all or nothing.

None of that should take away from the value of pursuing it however. Humans are in fact bad drivers, and have large numbers of failure modes like getting inebriated or sleepy or angry that a system can simply avoid entirely. But arguably even more important then safety, which is what tends to come up most, is utility (after all we put up with vastly less safe cars and driver practices for decades and decades before the present time already). Personal arbitrary-point-to-point mechanized transportation is effectively required for full participation in much of the modern world, it's just the danger and expense that makes it a quasi-right rather then a full one. The young and elderly being unable to take advantage is already a suboptimal state of affairs, and it's frankly a waste of everyone's valuable and limited human brain time that they're required to act as uncreative biocomputers in that role. It's all been worth it anyway because it's just that valuable, but removing a human having a required role is really just fulfilling what the tech should have been like from the beginning if our synthetic mechanical development didn't far outstrip our synthetic information collection and processing development. A certain amount of ongoing casualties and damage is entirely acceptable to achieve a societal improvement of that level of value, even if it wasn't much safer at all.

Re: Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

#66
post #45
post #22

I feel like an old man shaking my first at the slow march of inevitable progress - but - this is exactly why 'drive assist' or any other flavor of automated driving that is not 100% automation is not useful to me. If I have to pay attention and babysit piloting the vehicle, I might as well be driving (assuming I'm of sound enough mind and body to actually drive).

I don’t know. I like the idea of emergency braking as one last backstop. It can react faster than I can, and if prevents something I’m happy. It’s not like I’ve given up the brake pedal to it. Lane assist is similar. It’s very useful in high crosswinds, but it’s reliable enough even on well painted roads that you get used to it and end up relying on it. It feels a bit like power steering: makes the job easier but you…

> I like the idea of emergency braking as one last backstop. It can react faster than I can, and if prevents something I’m happy. It’s not like I’ve given up the brake pedal to it.

This is an example of something I might be open to, but I guess because I write software I have a million 'what if' nags worrying about edge cases.

> Lane assist is similar. It’s very useful in high crosswinds, but it’s reliable enough even on well painted roads that you get used to it and end up relying on it. It feels a bit like power steering: makes the job easier but you never stop doing the job.

On this I disagree. If you're not controlling the vehicle enough to keep in your lane, you're not paying enough attention - except in the high crosswinds scenario. I don't drive in high crosswinds, so I guess that is not a use case I am familiar with.

Re: Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

#67
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Waymo agrees with you, that's why their custom prototype car (the Firefly) didn't even have a steering wheel.

That sounds more like something up my alley... but I would prefer to be a late-adopter personally :)

Just not a late adopter!

Re: Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

#68
post #26

I'm starting to think it might be cheaper to lay down more rail lines or something like Japan. I don't mind driving the last few miles or biking.

You might not mind, but someone who can't drive or bike does.

... as does the person whose house gets knocked down to make room for the new rail line.

Re: Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

#69
post #45
post #22

I feel like an old man shaking my first at the slow march of inevitable progress - but - this is exactly why 'drive assist' or any other flavor of automated driving that is not 100% automation is not useful to me. If I have to pay attention and babysit piloting the vehicle, I might as well be driving (assuming I'm of sound enough mind and body to actually drive).

I don’t know. I like the idea of emergency braking as one last backstop. It can react faster than I can, and if prevents something I’m happy. It’s not like I’ve given up the brake pedal to it. Lane assist is similar. It’s very useful in high crosswinds, but it’s reliable enough even on well painted roads that you get used to it and end up relying on it. It feels a bit like power steering: makes the job easier but you…

I am not so sure about that statement. On a recent trip I passed through Cincinnati and I let my car; model 3; do both the speed and steering. I set a respectable follow distance which did of course encourage a few of the more aggressive drivers to dart in front of me. It never put me in a situation I felt I was at risk and more than once braked for something far quicker than I caught on.

as for the steering and lane keeping, even at V8 it was perfectly fine across hundred mile stretches of interstate. where it had difficulty is when the right line vanished for splitting highways or off ramps. still it recovered to the left before fully going to the right. Not 100% but I bet over 90% of my 600 mile commute North was with both traffic aware cruise control and auto steering.

What took me the most to get used to was TACC which many cars have and have had for years. Once I learned it really did stop and move correctly everything fell into place. The steering was my least concern and I quickly understood its limitations. The payoff was, realizing I was drowsy by seeing something in the rear view mirror I did not recall passing and the car kept me and others safe. Needless to say that was a wake up call to take a break.

Is it perfect, no. However I am under no illusion that I will be able to hop in a FSD car of any brand in bad weather and have it take me to the hospital within the next five years and maybe even ten. I really want to see how they overcome snow and near white out conditions that I have driven because at the time I had to

Re: Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

#70
post #66
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know. I like the idea of emergency braking as one last backstop. It can react faster than I can, and if prevents something I’m happy. It’s not like I’ve given up the brake pedal to it. Lane assist is similar. It’s very useful in high crosswinds, but it’s reliable enough even on well painted roads that you get used to it and end up relying on it. It feels a bit like power steering: makes the job easier but you…

> I like the idea of emergency braking as one last backstop. It can react faster than I can, and if prevents something I’m happy. It’s not like I’ve given up the brake pedal to it. This is an example of something I might be open to, but I guess because I write software I have a million 'what if' nags worrying about edge cases. > Lane assist is similar. It’s very useful in high crosswinds, but it’s reliable enough eve…

It still feels like you’re keeping it in the lane, just doesn’t feel like it takes as much force as it might otherwise. The curves may seem gentler.

Like many of these it requires active input. It will turn itself off (with a nice audible and flashing warning) if you don’t keep doing your part. You’re not going to get more than 30-45s of ‘I don’t have to do anything’ before it turns off and it’s all on you again.

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