Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode • Hacker News Board

Re: Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

#41

Post by loceng » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 3:17 PM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #31

Pxtl wrote: post #20

That's tricky. So you need to be able to take control of the car quickly in an emergency, but at the same time you want the human pseudodriver to be free to be distracted or drowsy, and so in a state where they could accidentally hit this button.

No. Waymo wants their test drivers to be attentive and alert, so that when the cars are ready, the passengers don't have to be. They should really have two test drivers there, though.

Not in all cases perhaps though to mimic real-life usage, as then this scenario may not have been uncovered until mass adoption; I could understand a 'real test driver' and a passive/non-engaged safety person in passenger seat - what can they do but wake a driver who falls asleep though, and perhaps then wake them before they accidentally engage manual mode while asleep?

Re: Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

#42

Post by randyrand » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 3:20 PM UTC

resonanttoe wrote: post #40

polskibus wrote: post #11

That tester detected a serious bug in the whole concept, inadvertently risking his life during testing. He should've been promoted.

Agreed, but lets not get ahead of ourselves. The statement is the "Driver no longer works for waymo" not that "they were fired for the incident.". That feels somewhat deliberate choice of words to me.

clearly picked up by a competing firm for presumably a large salary increase

Re: Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

#43

Post by dmoy » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 3:23 PM UTC

bryanlarsen wrote: post #29

Pxtl wrote: post #20

That's tricky. So you need to be able to take control of the car quickly in an emergency, but at the same time you want the human pseudodriver to be free to be distracted or drowsy, and so in a state where they could accidentally hit this button.

That would be classified as "Level 3" autonomous, aka "Driver must be available to take over controls". Waymo has publicly stated that it feels that Level 3 autonomous is unsafe and that it's goal is Level 4 "Driver not expected to take control". Waymo currently has Level 3 cars, which is why they employ safety drivers and haven't made their cars publicly available.

I thought they also had some l4 cars without steering wheels and stuff. Those must not have manual mode (right?! Or what? How?).

I have no idea how to know exactly though. Waymo is pretty tight lipped about this. I work at Google and I don't know for sure.

Re: Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

#44

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 3:24 PM UTC

briandear wrote: post #39

village-idiot wrote: post #5

Poor UX, poor safety controls. At this stage in the game, these prototype vehicles should absolutely detect whether or not their operators are paying attention, since they’re part of the safety system of the vehicle. Also, did they not learn from Uber’s fatal crash? A sole operator in these vehicles is a terrible idea. One person to monitor road conditions and one person to operate any computer equipment should be th…

Uber’s fatal crash was caused by a crazy, suicidal person who literally stepped in front of the car. A human driver couldn’t have avoided her.

[deleted]

Re: Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

#45

Post by MBCook » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 3:26 PM UTC

lolsal wrote: post #22

I feel like an old man shaking my first at the slow march of inevitable progress - but - this is exactly why 'drive assist' or any other flavor of automated driving that is not 100% automation is not useful to me. If I have to pay attention and babysit piloting the vehicle, I might as well be driving (assuming I'm of sound enough mind and body to actually drive).

I don’t know.

I like the idea of emergency braking as one last backstop. It can react faster than I can, and if prevents something I’m happy. It’s not like I’ve given up the brake pedal to it.

Lane assist is similar. It’s very useful in high crosswinds, but it’s reliable enough even on well painted roads that you get used to it and end up relying on it. It feels a bit like power steering: makes the job easier but you never stop doing the job.

Re: Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

#46

Post by leesec » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 3:26 PM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #30

melling wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but he found a flaw in the system before it shipped. People will be driving nonstop cross country in autonomous cars. This could easily happen. NYC to LA in 2 days.

Nope. Waymo's cars don't have passengers in reach of controls. The Firefly didn't even have pedals or a steering wheel, and on the Pacificas they sit in the back, I believe.

They still have employee's sitting in the drivers seat during their testing.

Re: Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

#47

Post by LudoA » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 3:26 PM UTC

loceng wrote: post #37

Qworg wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is definitely the correct response - what is the role of testing if not to uncover flaws in both design and implementation?

It does make me wonder what screening for test drivers they use.

Disagree. If you screen your test drivers, you no longer have adequate testing. Your test drivers need to be representative (as much as possible) of the general population.

Re: Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

#48

Post by mikestew » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 3:27 PM UTC

duxup wrote: post #17

village-idiot wrote: post #5

Poor UX, poor safety controls. At this stage in the game, these prototype vehicles should absolutely detect whether or not their operators are paying attention, since they’re part of the safety system of the vehicle. Also, did they not learn from Uber’s fatal crash? A sole operator in these vehicles is a terrible idea. One person to monitor road conditions and one person to operate any computer equipment should be th…

What's the point if you have to pay attention? I'm being serious when I ask. I question weather people can safely use these vehicles in these modes where they're supposed to not interact ... but pay close attention at the same time. I think it is going to have to be full autonomy, or not at all.

I question weather people can safely use these vehicles in these modes

Of course they can't. Watch people who've been looking at their phone while the light's red. Watch how they drive after it turns green. Some of them drive away like they're drunk, lurching and weaving, like they're reorienting themselves to the driving task. On the rare occasions I get even slightly engaged with the phone at a light, it's almost like I have to "reboot" back to driving mode when the light goes green.

The part of the "throwing it in the human's lap at the last second" that bothers me is that a lot of context gets missed when it's time to grab the wheel. At least for me, I get context a little bit at a time. That guy in the left lane is looking at his phone more than the road......big truck's going to want in this lane when his ends, leave room......I see taillights 12 cars ahead, what's going? And Level 3 is going to just hand me the wheel without me knowing any of that? Yeah, I see why Waymo is shooting for Level 4.

Re: Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

#49

Post by icebraining » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 3:27 PM UTC

briandear wrote: post #39

village-idiot wrote: post #5

Poor UX, poor safety controls. At this stage in the game, these prototype vehicles should absolutely detect whether or not their operators are paying attention, since they’re part of the safety system of the vehicle. Also, did they not learn from Uber’s fatal crash? A sole operator in these vehicles is a terrible idea. One person to monitor road conditions and one person to operate any computer equipment should be th…

Uber’s fatal crash was caused by a crazy, suicidal person who literally stepped in front of the car. A human driver couldn’t have avoided her.

If you can't avoid an obstacle that is slowly entering the road, you're driving too fast for the conditions.

Re: Waymo self-driving car crashed when driver fell asleep and triggered manual mode

#50

Post by NickM » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 3:27 PM UTC

lolsal wrote: post #22

I feel like an old man shaking my first at the slow march of inevitable progress - but - this is exactly why 'drive assist' or any other flavor of automated driving that is not 100% automation is not useful to me. If I have to pay attention and babysit piloting the vehicle, I might as well be driving (assuming I'm of sound enough mind and body to actually drive).

How do you feel about cruise control? Or automatic transmissions?

I like semi-autonomous systems because they still take some of the cognitive load off of driving. Paying attention is still easier than paying attention plus constantly having to adjust speed/steering/etc.