Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap • Hacker News Board

Re: Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

#201

Post by rukittenme » Mon, Oct 01, 2018, 1:45 AM UTC

lovich wrote: post #192

rukittenme wrote: post #92

I'm surprised this has had such a good reception. Hobbling men in the name of equality is just bizarre. It's mixture of "Hansel and Gretel" and "Harrison Bergeron". Instead of weights just fatten them up with sweets. I didn't push a human being out from between my legs. Because of that I'm capable of working. I would like to be useful to my family. Working is one way I can do that. If I work while my wife is on leave…

It's not leave to just fuck off and do nothing. Taking care of a baby is an incredibly demanding task which is why most human societies we're built around having multiple generations of family, or other members of your tribe, helping with childcare. Foisting all of that onto a mother without any assistance is a relatively new thing in human history. If you took parental leave, most people would expect to be an actual…

> so why would we not mitigate it?

For two reasons. One simple and one complex.

The first and simple reason is that you're applying rules categorically. If I live in a multi-generational household I don't need to stay home and care for the children to the same degree as a more "typical" family. Compelling me to stay home reduces my earnings with no added benefit to my wife or family. In fact you've hindered my family's ability to progress economically. You've hurt a specific woman to help the average woman. As I've illustrated above, the average woman does not exist. Mandatory leave helps a statistical category but not women.

The second more complex reason has more to do with economics.

We already know that women who have never married earn more than men of the same category (the gap is not large or worth considering).

> As far back as 1971, single women in their thirties who had worked continuously since high school earned slightly more than men of the same description. As far back as 1969, academic women who had never married earned more than academic men who had never married.[1]

From this we can gleam two things. 1: Women are not being "treated differently based on the circumstances of their birth" (at least in a way that disadvantages them in terms of salary). 2: Mothers are being treated differently based on their behaviors.

I hope the first statement is self-explanatory but the second might need additional context.

How does an employer know if a women will give birth in the next five years? The obvious answer is "they don't". So if that's the case how do businesses know to pay mothers less than never-married women? Because they're not paying mothers less. They're paying never-married women more. People with more continuous years of service are more able to capitalize on opportunities in the workplace and are never in a position to be rendered redundant by a replacement.

If you compel men to take paternal leave, you open them up to all the detriments that mothers face. You take a family who's member has already taken an earnings hit and doubled down.

The gender wage gap (as it exists in the United States in 2018) is not a concern. Efforts to fix the gap will result in lower wages for fathers not higher wages for women (the terms "fathers" and "women" were chosen with significant care).

tl;dr: Fixing the pay gap between never-married women and mothers will solve the gender pay gap as a corollary.

1. https://www.nationalreview.com/2016/08/pay-gap-studies-dispr...

Re: Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

#202

Post by lovich » Mon, Oct 01, 2018, 2:32 AM UTC

rukittenme wrote: post #201

lovich wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not leave to just fuck off and do nothing. Taking care of a baby is an incredibly demanding task which is why most human societies we're built around having multiple generations of family, or other members of your tribe, helping with childcare. Foisting all of that onto a mother without any assistance is a relatively new thing in human history. If you took parental leave, most people would expect to be an actual…

> so why would we not mitigate it? For two reasons. One simple and one complex. The first and simple reason is that you're applying rules categorically . If I live in a multi-generational household I don't need to stay home and care for the children to the same degree as a more "typical" family. Compelling me to stay home reduces my earnings with no added benefit to my wife or family. In fact you've hindered my famil…

My understanding is that this idea would imply paid mandatory leave. It would be bad for the individuals if it was mandatory unpaid leave.

>From this we can gleam two things. 1: Women are not being "treated differently based on the circumstances of their birth" (at least in a way that disadvantages them in terms of salary). 2: Mothers are being treated differently based on their behaviors.

I hope the first statement is self-explanatory but the second might need additional context.

Women are being treated differently here because when a man and woman decide to have a child, the woman is guaranteed to have to take leave and that is known and accounted for before hand. Mandatory parental leave makes that cost be the same regardless of gender. It is disingenuous to say women aren't being treated differently and only mothers are, when men don't get the same treatment despite being fathers

>If you compel men to take paternal leave, you open them up to all the detriments that mothers face

I view this more as spreading the burden of child rearing across society which I agree would increase the burden on men and companies. It is a completely necessary part of being biological life and continuing our society, but as we currently stand we just demand that a subset of society takes care of it on their own dime. If paternal leave was mandatory for children we would be treating men and women equally, because women have no choice but taking leave when they have a child, and we would be promotion better care for the children which is in our own best interests. We are k type breeders, not r type, and we have shown a better return on investment by giving better care to less children.

>The gender wage gap (as it exists in the United States in 2018) is not a concern.

That is an opinion, not a fact.

Re: Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

#203

Post by rukittenme » Mon, Oct 01, 2018, 3:24 AM UTC

lovich wrote: post #202

rukittenme wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so why would we not mitigate it? For two reasons. One simple and one complex. The first and simple reason is that you're applying rules categorically . If I live in a multi-generational household I don't need to stay home and care for the children to the same degree as a more "typical" family. Compelling me to stay home reduces my earnings with no added benefit to my wife or family. In fact you've hindered my famil…

My understanding is that this idea would imply paid mandatory leave. It would be bad for the individuals if it was mandatory unpaid leave. >From this we can gleam two things. 1: Women are not being "treated differently based on the circumstances of their birth" (at least in a way that disadvantages them in terms of salary). 2: Mothers are being treated differently based on their behaviors. I hope the first statement…

> My understanding is that this idea would imply paid mandatory leave. It would be bad for the individuals if it was mandatory unpaid leave.

That was understood in my post. Long periods of paid leave inhibits earnings growth and leaves you vulnerable to replacement regardless of gender.

This is what was meant by "Fixing the pay gap between never-married women and mothers will solve the gender pay gap as a corollary."

> Women are being treated differently here because when a man and woman decide to have a child, the woman is guaranteed to have to take leave.

Yes there is a guaranteed recovery period. And, yes, depending on how long you are absent this leave will effect earnings. But...

> men don't get the same treatment despite being fathers

Men who take long paternity leave suffer the same income stagnation as women.

"Still, most men can’t afford to take more than a few days off after the birth of a new child. Especially because parental leave can depress long-term earnings [...] regardless of gender."[1]

Compelling paternity leave does not increase the earnings of mothers. It decreases the earnings of fathers. Which may very well shrink the gender wage gap but it makes families poorer and less able to provide for themselves and their children.

To be trite, you're cutting off your nose to spite your face.

> I view this more as spreading the burden

This, I believe, is our fundamental disagreement. You think a burden is being spread more thinly whereas I think you've created additional burdens. In my opinion, and I believe the data backs me up, this strategy reduces fathers and does nothing to help mothers (economically).

1. https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/12/the-ris...

Re: Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

#204

Post by gehsty » Mon, Oct 01, 2018, 8:17 AM UTC

zimablue wrote: post #50

brighteyes wrote: post #17

It would have been a more interesting article had it also went into the downsides of this approach. One specific concern is that mandatory paternity leave may discourage men from becoming fathers, further decreasing the birth rate which is already quite low in many advanced economies. Another is that if taking paternity leave impacts men's careers, then in many cases both parents will suffer such an impact, further d…

The downside is that it forces people who don't want children to pay for other people's children, at a time when we should be trying to reduce the population and not increase it. Having children is not a public service, it's closer to pollution and I object so much to subsidising it.

Why should we be reducing the population? I’ve seen this mentioned a few times in this thread and I just don’t get it.

Also, so many things are subsidised by governments that if you were to pick and chose what you approve of by you paying for it and not using it then you’ll not use much.

On the softer side of things, having kids is a good thing, supporting people as much as possible when they have kids with flexible paid leave is a good thing, and I hope more companies and countries continue to improve levels of support for new parents.

Re: Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

#205

Post by solatic » Mon, Oct 01, 2018, 12:57 PM UTC

tedunangst wrote: post #152

brighteyes wrote: post #17

It would have been a more interesting article had it also went into the downsides of this approach. One specific concern is that mandatory paternity leave may discourage men from becoming fathers, further decreasing the birth rate which is already quite low in many advanced economies. Another is that if taking paternity leave impacts men's careers, then in many cases both parents will suffer such an impact, further d…

Make it mandatory leave. No kids? Oh, well, still have to stay home and play video games for six months.

An excellent way to destroy a country's productivity.

Listen, if you want the government to incentivize having children, then establish tax consequences. Same way as the government can force you to pay a tax penalty, the government could force people older than a certain age who are still childless to pay a "societal development" tax. The proceeds of the tax go towards paying for free childcare.

/not sure if I'm serious about the above or not

Re: Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

#206

Post by Bizarro » Mon, Oct 01, 2018, 4:29 PM UTC

lovich wrote: post #83

damagednoob wrote: post #33

I'm in favour of a set amount of parental leave that can be shared between spouses in whatever ratio they choose. I don't understand how depriving families of choices is going to be a good thing. Example: You and your husband would like to breastfeed your baby for the first 6 months but you are unable to express? Too bad, your husband has to take paternity leave and you will have to go back to work. From my experienc…

The state already imposes interruptions in what parents see as their childs well being. Requiring vaccinations to attend school, preventing parents from including children in dangerous religious events like snake handling, stopping underage marriages even when the parent thinks it's in the child best economic interest, etc. Unless you are against state intervention in cases like these, then you are already accepting…

Unless you are against state intervention in cases like these, then you are already accepting that the state can interfere. At that point the question is a matter of degree

I just can't be charitable with the whole "well the state already does..." arguments.

In free societies, the state interfering with child rearing is a serious matter.

In totalitarian regimes, it's par for the course.

Re: Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

#207

Post by renjimen » Mon, Oct 01, 2018, 8:06 PM UTC

lovich wrote: post #191

renjimen wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Reproduction holiday". I can only assume you have never spent time around babies and small children. Holiday usually is the last word that springs to mind.

The guy thinks the one month is a generous amount of time to give a woman to recover from childbirth while taking of a baby at the same time. He seems adamant that people only take time off to relax and there's zero benefit to the child to having parents around. The arguments hes posting might hold more sway if he based them on the reality of having a child at all

Sounds like he just wants people to stop having kids at all. Like our society wouldn't collapse within a generation if we didn't. Somehow it's an individual's responsibility to maintain the future workforce and the rest of society in no way benefits.

Re: Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

#208

Post by wpietri » Mon, Oct 01, 2018, 8:51 PM UTC

srslack wrote: post #150

wpietri wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is an unedited opinion piece [1] from somebody who works for an antifeminist organization [2]. If that's what you count as proof, then maybe consider you're not being objective here. [1] https://www.cjr.org/innovations/newsrooms_boost_traffic.php and also https://www.joshsteimle.com/writing/how-being-a-forbes-contr... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Women%27s_Forum

It's described as anti-feminist by some critics, namely the critics who are being disingenuous in their use of statistics lacking proper controls, or outright lying or misrepresenting what the statistics mean. It's not the brand of feminism they identify with, but it's still feminism. Perhaps "proven" wasn't the best word for the parent, you can't ever prove a negative, but considering the wage gap vanishes to less t…

It is described as antifeminist by most feminists. And by me, for what it's worth.

I think you're burying a lot in "proper controls". And quoting a Bush administration official suggesting it's all about "individual choice" as if it were a neutral statement is not even vaguely giving a fair picture.

Under capitalism, the whole point of market signals like wages and prices is to shape individual choice. So it's tautological to suggest that accounting for individual choice proves that there's no sexism embedded in the system.

The reasonable feminist critique of approaches like this is that women don't just magically prefer part-time, family-friendly work any more than they just happened to prefer to be homemakers through most of history. In that view, we have been removing structural impediments to a fair society for centuries, and the work is not done yet.

Re: Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

#209

Post by smsm42 » Mon, Oct 01, 2018, 9:50 PM UTC

nickwalton00 wrote: post #188

swebs wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"why should I pay for raising someone else's kids?" Well why should I?

Because other people paid when you were young to raise you.

No they did not (especially false for US, think about why). And if they did, that's still not a good argument. The fact that we have had something done in the past is not a good argument to keep doing it - US past is full of things that weren't good and shouldn't be done.

Re: Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

#210

Post by smsm42 » Mon, Oct 01, 2018, 9:55 PM UTC

tedunangst wrote: post #152

brighteyes wrote: post #17

It would have been a more interesting article had it also went into the downsides of this approach. One specific concern is that mandatory paternity leave may discourage men from becoming fathers, further decreasing the birth rate which is already quite low in many advanced economies. Another is that if taking paternity leave impacts men's careers, then in many cases both parents will suffer such an impact, further d…

Make it mandatory leave. No kids? Oh, well, still have to stay home and play video games for six months.

With regular police visits to ensure you're not secretly using this time to work, or get education, or self-improve, because that would be unfair. In fact, it would be more efficient to just put such people in a low-security prison. With video games and well-stocked mini-bar of course, after all they are not criminals!