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Apple changes words in order to change the debate

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Re: Apple changes words in order to change the debate

#131

Post by sigzero »

nodata wrote: post #117
sovande wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linux on the desktop is dead. Didn't you get the memo? http://linux.slashdot.org/story/10/10/18/1312214/Desktop-Lin... And it's dead exactly because of fragmentation. I don't think Android will fare any better.

I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic. If you're not, fragmentation (Gnome versus KDE, i.e. competition), is precisely what drives desktop Linux (see HN comment http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1746192 )

It only drives desktop Linux for the geeks. Joe and Jane Public don't really know the nuanaces of KDE or Gnome and they don't want to know. They want a product that just works and Apple is really really good at providing that to them.

Re: Apple changes words in order to change the debate

#132

Post by steveklabnik »

GHFigs wrote: post #54
jsankey wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although I agree with the general point that Android is not totally open in an absolute sense, I think you too easily ignore the ways in which it is open relative to the iPhone. First and foremost, I don't have to jailbreak my phone to install apps not "approved" by Google/the carrier/whoever. I can download an APK from anywhere. Secondly, the code is open. This does matter in practice, because there are people who c…

I can download an APK from anywhere. Out of curiosity, do you (or any Android users reading this) find yourself doing this with any frequency?

I've never done it.

Re: Apple changes words in order to change the debate

#133

Post by steveklabnik »

sjs382 wrote: post #18
danilocampos wrote: post #14

It's easy to look at this cynically but it's not unreasonable to change the conversation. Google's exploitation of "open" has been disingenuous at best. When you try to square their high ideals against reality, you end up in an uncomfortable spot. The fact is, Android's openness does not make it to the end user . Its openness is exploited for the benefit of the carriers to load branded crapware onto the device, disab…

"The fact is, Android's openness does not make it to the end user." Android's openness has made it to those who want the openness. The fact that my phone OS is open is the thing I care about. (I'm running SkyRaider 3.3 on my HTC Incredible on Verizon.)

How is rooting your Android phone any different than jailbreaking your iPhone?

Re: Apple changes words in order to change the debate

#134

Post by nodata »

sigzero wrote: post #131
nodata wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic. If you're not, fragmentation (Gnome versus KDE, i.e. competition), is precisely what drives desktop Linux (see HN comment http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1746192 )

It only drives desktop Linux for the geeks. Joe and Jane Public don't really know the nuanaces of KDE or Gnome and they don't want to know. They want a product that just works and Apple is really really good at providing that to them.

and the public don't need to know, they just need to use "Ubuntu" or whatever is installed for them.

I've been actually shocked by the number of people nowadays who have told me that they use Linux at home, let alone the number of people who have heard of it. Ask these people whether they use Gnome or KDE and they won't know. Ask them what Linux they use, and they will: Ubuntu, almost exclusively.

Re: Apple changes words in order to change the debate

#135

Post by larsu »

masklinn wrote: post #127
larsu wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amount of crippling done by the carriers is not Android's fault nor is it in any way advantaged by Android being open. The same crapware has been on Symbian and other (closed) mobile operating systems for a long time. Apple is the only manufacturer that was able to convince carriers to sell their phones without any of that garbage. I don't know what is stopping HTC/Motorala/Samsung from trying to enforce similar…

> The amount of crippling done by the carriers is not Android's fault nor is it in any way advantaged by Android being open. Of course it is. Proof in the pudding: iOS has none of it. > The same crapware has been on Symbian and other (closed) mobile operating systems for a long time. because Symbian and WiMo were open to carriers and manufacturers. > I don't know what is stopping HTC/Motorala/Samsung from trying to e…

Of course it is. Proof in the pudding: iOS has none of it.

You missed my point, which was that the crippling is not Android's fault but that of the carriers and phone manufacturers. Its also not due to some inherent property of iOS that it doesn't have any crapware, but thanks to Apple caring about their customers more than about the carriers.

To Apple, carriers are not customers. They're generally hindrances and they might be partners, but Apple's customers are end-user.

Not so for HTC or moto.

Exactly. But again, this has nothing to do with Android or its openness.

Re: Apple changes words in order to change the debate

#136

Post by steveklabnik »

mike-cardwell wrote: post #128
daten wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few weeks ago I bought an "Epic 4G" phone from Sprint. This is one of the Samsung Galaxy S variants. It has a custom GUI called "TouchWiz" made to look more like the iphone and is loaded with Sprint applications including a game demo, nascar related and football related applications that are installed as "system applications" and cannot be removed by the user. It also has a Sprint replacement for the wifi hotspot t…

That really sucks. But my question was, is your experience typical of most Android users, or a minority?

Out of what I've seen so far, most. I personally have a Nexus One, but my girlfriend's Cliq XT has all kinds of bullshit installed. It has yet to get 2.2, as far as I know, so we'll see if she still gets tethering...

Re: Apple changes words in order to change the debate

#137

Post by larsu »

jonhendry wrote: post #55
larsu wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amount of crippling done by the carriers is not Android's fault nor is it in any way advantaged by Android being open. The same crapware has been on Symbian and other (closed) mobile operating systems for a long time. Apple is the only manufacturer that was able to convince carriers to sell their phones without any of that garbage. I don't know what is stopping HTC/Motorala/Samsung from trying to enforce similar…

" I don't know what is stopping HTC/Motorala/Samsung from trying to enforce similar conditions for its Android-based devices." If say HTC tried to enforce such conditions, they'd have little leverage because their devices are practically Android-running commodities. If HTC threatened to walk away from a carrier, it likely wouldn't hurt the carrier that much. Since Apple's the only iOS device vendor, they have a bit m…

They certainly would have leverage if they built a phone people really want. This is exactly how Apple gained that leverage.

Alternatively, they could team up with the other manufacturers and boycott carriers which refuse to sell their phones as-is. But they simply don't seem to care about their end-users as much as the carriers (and neither does Google apparently).

edit: spelling.

Re: Apple changes words in order to change the debate

#138

Post by sjs382 »

steveklabnik wrote: post #133
sjs382 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The fact is, Android's openness does not make it to the end user." Android's openness has made it to those who want the openness. The fact that my phone OS is open is the thing I care about. (I'm running SkyRaider 3.3 on my HTC Incredible on Verizon.)

How is rooting your Android phone any different than jailbreaking your iPhone?

You don't have the source to iOS.

Re: Apple changes words in order to change the debate

#139

Post by gxti »

steveklabnik wrote: post #4

Another "great" example of this: the Corn Refiner's Association has applied to rebrand HFCS into "corn sugar." http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100914/ap_on_bi_ge/us_corn_syru...

It's a very interesting situation because while it's clearly a "typical evil corporation" move, it's one that's objectively justifiable given the evidence. Because I am anti-putting-sugar-in-everything (HFCS or otherwise), I hope that this will result in more people associating corn syrup with sugar. All the campaigns against HFCS should really have been campaigning against all forms of sugar all along and the association will (perhaps inadvertently) make people more averse of products with too much sugar.

Re: Apple changes words in order to change the debate

#140

Post by slantyyz »

guelo wrote: post #26
danilocampos wrote: post #14

It's easy to look at this cynically but it's not unreasonable to change the conversation. Google's exploitation of "open" has been disingenuous at best. When you try to square their high ideals against reality, you end up in an uncomfortable spot. The fact is, Android's openness does not make it to the end user . Its openness is exploited for the benefit of the carriers to load branded crapware onto the device, disab…

The openness reaches the consumer via competition. There will be many Android offerings from many manufacturers with a thousand different configurations and offered by all the carriers. HTC vs Motorola vs Samsung vs LG, Tmobile vs ATT vs Sprint vs Verizon, all trying to outdo each other. The winner is the consumer, even the Apple consumer because the competition will keep Jobs raving mad and working hard.

The whole openness discussion is so little inside baseball to me, and I don't know that the consumer impact will be all that great. There's a point of diminishing returns when the consumer has -too- much choice. They will just get confused.

Of the millions who are buying smartphones from any company, I tend to think only a small percentage care about the types of things we love to debate here.

I would say that the main reasons for a consumer (and they vastly outnumber us nerds) to buy a smartphone are:

* make a call

* send/receive texts

* send/receive e-mails

* surf the web

* take pictures

* look pretty

* do the facebook

* have some sort of mapping/gps

* have some sort of handsfree

* have decent battery life

And guess what, just about --every-- smartphone out there will satisfy that wish list, and do a pretty damned good job of it.

Openness? Number of Apps? Closed environment? Jailbreaking? Rooting? Nitpicky UI details?

Only nerds care about that stuff.

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