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Apple changes words in order to change the debate

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Re: Apple changes words in order to change the debate

#121

Post by ladon86 »

zmmmmm wrote: post #78
danilocampos wrote: post #14

It's easy to look at this cynically but it's not unreasonable to change the conversation. Google's exploitation of "open" has been disingenuous at best. When you try to square their high ideals against reality, you end up in an uncomfortable spot. The fact is, Android's openness does not make it to the end user . Its openness is exploited for the benefit of the carriers to load branded crapware onto the device, disab…

> If you're an end user, the net gain of that openness is zero, and at times it's even a loss I have about 15 home screen widgets, an alternative dialer, alternative browser and a bunch of other programs that would never be allowed on iOS that beg to differ.

I have an alternative dialler and an Opera browser on my iphone which I downloaded from the App Store.

Quite a few rules have changed on iOS, so both the examples you gave are allowed and available.

Re: Apple changes words in order to change the debate

#122

Post by biafra »

andreyf wrote: post #24
sjs382 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The fact is, Android's openness does not make it to the end user." Android's openness has made it to those who want the openness. The fact that my phone OS is open is the thing I care about. (I'm running SkyRaider 3.3 on my HTC Incredible on Verizon.)

Even ignoring that 99.9% of users don't know the meaning of "open source", I'll believe Android is truly open in the FSF sense I care about when RMS uses one. Until then, I have trouble as seeing it as much more than rhetoric. Sure, you can compile and put your own OS on your phone, but I don't know of anyone who's actually done it (and nodata points out in an uncle to this post that you can't actually do it on some…

So Linux is not considered open anymore because you cannot install your own modified version on your Tivo?

Re: Apple changes words in order to change the debate

#123

Post by stretchwithme »

The "real" real problem is not the carriers. Its the way the government manages the spectrum.

We could have a dynamic marketplace where devices, users, networks could buy spectrum in advance or real time and even resell it.

We need incentives for making the most use of spectrum, for making more spectrum with faster clocks. Seems we have incentives for controlling and inhibiting innovation.

Instead we've sold spectrum to the highest bidder who can then control access to it and have no real open competition. Maybe Google's bid last year will change that a bit (http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9910932-7.html).

You ought to be able to create your own network by buying spectrum in a fluid marketplace. Or just be one guy buying spectrum as you need it for some device you made yourself.

Don't if that all makes sense, but I think you may at least see what I mean by the problem behind the problem.

Re: Apple changes words in order to change the debate

#124

Post by AndrewDucker »

rufo wrote: post #38
sjs382 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The fact is, Android's openness does not make it to the end user." Android's openness has made it to those who want the openness. The fact that my phone OS is open is the thing I care about. (I'm running SkyRaider 3.3 on my HTC Incredible on Verizon.)

That's great for now, but phone manufacturers seem to be trying to close down holes as fast as they can - see the Droid X and G2. (Not that people won't figure out ways around them, but if Android were truly open to users you wouldn't need exploits to get around limitations...)

So get a Nexus One.

The fact that there are multiple suppliers give the user choice. They can include how locked down a phone is in their criteria for making that choice, and buy one direct if they wish to have a phone that's not locked down by a middleman.

Re: Apple changes words in order to change the debate

#125

Post by loewenskind »

dannyr wrote: post #98

I still remember how the Bush administration carefully worded some bills. Healthy Forest Initiative - opens up more parks to the timber industry Patriot Act - Who would dare say they are against Patriotism?

I'm strongly against patriotism actually but I see your point.

Re: Apple changes words in order to change the debate

#126

Post by masklinn »

AndrewDucker wrote: post #124
rufo wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's great for now, but phone manufacturers seem to be trying to close down holes as fast as they can - see the Droid X and G2. (Not that people won't figure out ways around them, but if Android were truly open to users you wouldn't need exploits to get around limitations...)

So get a Nexus One. The fact that there are multiple suppliers give the user choice. They can include how locked down a phone is in their criteria for making that choice, and buy one direct if they wish to have a phone that's not locked down by a middleman.

> So get a Nexus One.

That phone is not publicly available unless you're a dev.

Re: Apple changes words in order to change the debate

#127

Post by masklinn »

larsu wrote: post #33
danilocampos wrote: post #14

It's easy to look at this cynically but it's not unreasonable to change the conversation. Google's exploitation of "open" has been disingenuous at best. When you try to square their high ideals against reality, you end up in an uncomfortable spot. The fact is, Android's openness does not make it to the end user . Its openness is exploited for the benefit of the carriers to load branded crapware onto the device, disab…

The amount of crippling done by the carriers is not Android's fault nor is it in any way advantaged by Android being open. The same crapware has been on Symbian and other (closed) mobile operating systems for a long time. Apple is the only manufacturer that was able to convince carriers to sell their phones without any of that garbage. I don't know what is stopping HTC/Motorala/Samsung from trying to enforce similar…

> The amount of crippling done by the carriers is not Android's fault nor is it in any way advantaged by Android being open.

Of course it is. Proof in the pudding: iOS has none of it.

> The same crapware has been on Symbian and other (closed) mobile operating systems for a long time.

because Symbian and WiMo were open to carriers and manufacturers.

> I don't know what is stopping HTC/Motorala/Samsung from trying to enforce similar conditions for its Android-based devices.

Because they don't care and because their client is the carrier, not the end-user. An aussie ISP put it quite succinctly a few days/weeks ago when they declared they didn't understand why Apple didn't bow to their demand when they were its biggest customer in Australia.

To Apple, carriers are not customers. They're generally hindrances and they might be partners, but Apple's customers are end-user.

Not so for HTC or moto.

Re: Apple changes words in order to change the debate

#128

Post by mike-cardwell »

daten wrote: post #71
mike-cardwell wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep hearing about the "branded crapware" that comes with lots of Android phones. I've had a G1 since they first came out, it didn't have anything like that on it, and I haven't upgraded yet. I know this does happen though, but I'm not sure to what extent? What proportion of new Android phones have this? 90%? 5%?

A few weeks ago I bought an "Epic 4G" phone from Sprint. This is one of the Samsung Galaxy S variants. It has a custom GUI called "TouchWiz" made to look more like the iphone and is loaded with Sprint applications including a game demo, nascar related and football related applications that are installed as "system applications" and cannot be removed by the user. It also has a Sprint replacement for the wifi hotspot t…

That really sucks. But my question was, is your experience typical of most Android users, or a minority?

Re: Apple changes words in order to change the debate

#129

Post by kmfrk »

jsankey wrote: post #51
danilocampos wrote: post #14

It's easy to look at this cynically but it's not unreasonable to change the conversation. Google's exploitation of "open" has been disingenuous at best. When you try to square their high ideals against reality, you end up in an uncomfortable spot. The fact is, Android's openness does not make it to the end user . Its openness is exploited for the benefit of the carriers to load branded crapware onto the device, disab…

Although I agree with the general point that Android is not totally open in an absolute sense, I think you too easily ignore the ways in which it is open relative to the iPhone. First and foremost, I don't have to jailbreak my phone to install apps not "approved" by Google/the carrier/whoever. I can download an APK from anywhere. Secondly, the code is open. This does matter in practice, because there are people who c…

As valid as your points are, said arguments are also changing the conversation.

"Open" isn't very useful PR - which is what it basically feels like with Google at the moment - and I think it's fine Jobs is trying to highlight the advantages of the iOS platform.

37signals should move on from Political Communication 101 and avoid getting caught up in spin vs. content.

Re: Apple changes words in order to change the debate

#130

Post by robin_reala »

masklinn wrote: post #126
AndrewDucker wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So get a Nexus One. The fact that there are multiple suppliers give the user choice. They can include how locked down a phone is in their criteria for making that choice, and buy one direct if they wish to have a phone that's not locked down by a middleman.

> So get a Nexus One. That phone is not publicly available unless you're a dev.

Looks publicly available where I’m sitting:

http://shop.vodafone.co.uk/shop/mobile-phone/google-nexus-on...

http://www.expansys.com/google-nexus-one-android-smartphone-...

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