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Germans don’t do tech startups – more access to capital might change that

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141–150 of 166 posts

Re: Germans don’t do tech startups – more access to capital might change that

#141

Germany has a lot of drawbacks to be the next silicon valley: * the most difficult tax system in the world. even freelancers have to use accountant services, because most people will not be able to pay taxes properly without it. * high taxes - 42% income tax + Solidaritätszuschlag 5.5% = 47.5%; for corporations it's ~30%. * A LOT of buerocracy. I can't even send an email to tax authorities in my area, because they on…

Few comments on this, I live and work in Germany as Freiberufler for last couple of years or so.

> * the most difficult tax system in the world. even freelancers have to use accountant services, because most people will not be able to pay taxes properly without it.

Nothing strange about it. When I was self-emoloyed in the UK, I also had to use services of an accountant.

> * high taxes - 42% income tax + Solidaritätszuschlag 5.5% = 47.5%; for corporations it's ~30%.

Taxes are high but, for example, Belgium has higher taxes. In the UK I was also hitting 38%. Corporate tax in the UK was back then 20% with 10% tax on dividends, Germany is expensive but not the most expensive.

> * A LOT of buerocracy. I can't even send an email to tax authorities in my area, because they only accept paper letters but nothing else.

Where do you live. No problem with Finanzamt in NRW and RLP communicating over email. Germans do almost everything on paper but things can snd are done over phone and email.

> * highly qualified foreigners have to learn German and it's quite difficult language.

No, they don‘t. It depends who your clients are. I live in NRW and barely speak German. Not proud of it, learning. Just an observation. For sure it‘s easier with the language knowledge.

> * the market in Germany is much smaller comparing to USA. If you want to target EU, then you have to support a lot of different languages, date/time formats, regulations and laws etc.

I am not sure what you mean by that. I just invoice people in different countries. Nothing to do with dates, languages, formats.

> * recently the EU introduced a lot of additional regulations for internet companies (GDPR, new copyright directives that require checking uploaded files, etc...).

Personal preference. I prefer this over another facebook or google.

> * weather is not that appealing as in the valley. > * the difference in salaries between regular developers and rockstars is very low. So there is zero motivation to become one.

Fun fact, a graduate in Atlanta gets ~90k/year. Zero experience, barely left university.

> * low salaries for software engineers. The most of senior software developers will earn 50.000 - 60.000 EURO anually and after paying taxes it's only ~2.600 EURO per month (3.000 USD)

This number seems to be common everywhere in the EU. Different currencies but overall the same value.

> * poor internet connection in a lot of places / poor connection speed - almost any country is better in this regard

Oh yes. This is so common in Germany. When I read how easy it is to get fibre in India, I cringe.

Re: Germans don’t do tech startups – more access to capital might change that

#142
post #30

The mindset in SV is to fail fast - yes, with all the consequences for the investors. That's why investing in startups is a high risk investment. And that's also why the cautious way of doing business in Europe doesn't help with the startup economy. Being too cautious prevents from taking high risks. I interviewed several times with startups proud of not having any funding behind. Very nice. Still, my question is...…

> The main difference is that in the USA money is constantly being invested, there is a lot of debt but that's the way to innovate.

By the way debt financing is quite uncommon for startups in the US. It's almost all equity.

Re: Germans don’t do tech startups – more access to capital might change that

#143

We do have tech startups here in Germany, and quite a few of them. It's just that they tend to be funded differently, and with less of the wild valuation-speculation that goes on in the US. I'm not sure that's a bad thing. As a corollary, the article cites European data protection law (in the context of not being able to collect usage data to improve the product) as a barrier to building startups which ... is also ve…

" less of the wild valuation-speculation. I'm not sure that's a bad thing."

This is one of the classic misunderstandings of European entrepreneurs and investors.

In finance - things with low risk, tend to produce low yield. This is generally well established because there are a lot of 'eyes on the info'. For example, we can calculate how much it costs to extract a new shallow water Oil find. Most of the variables are known.

Though it's not so clear in early-stage, the rule will still apply because the easy hanging fruit generally will be culled when there are intelligent actors.

So - you need to take on risk. Otherwise, you're probably not attacking a big opportunity.

European VC's usually come out of the world of finance - in fact, VC is considered a part of 'Private Equity'. In PE or big funds, they invest in one or many companies, and expect x% return. Some more, some less.

In PE, if a company were to go bankrupt, it would wipe out the portfolio profits. Imagine if Warren Buffet put money in CN Rail and it turfed.Bad.

But in VC - you get 9 fails and 1 home run. The fails are hard to swallow but they are an inherent part of the system.

Culturally, Europeans especially Germans are not good with that kind of failure. It can be seen as a permanent mark on one's competency and status. In Austria, up until recently, a CEO who put his company bankrupt could face criminal charges.

All of this makes sense in a culture of high standards and expectations, coupled with social solidarity of workers (i.e. you but us out of jobs, you pay!).

European LP's are not used to losing their money. European workers are not used to equity, to losing their jobs, to total instability.

European BigCo's often do not recognize value in startups. The culture in Europe is very protocol and status oriented - you're 'value' is a function of the prestige and power of the entity you represent. Ramshackle, scruffy coders showing you 'you can do something amazing' is just less potent an opportunity than it is in the US.

And of course, the exit opportunities are not there.

And then so many other systematic issues like the fact almost nobody will learn to speak German, immigration etc. etc.. - all of this makes it that much harder.

Much of what I am saying is stereotypical of course, but it's real enough.

I think Europe should take their disadvantages and turn them into advantages and use their 'longer scope of vision' to do value creating things.

Europe is good at getting people together and going 'big projects' that have a long term view. Like CERN. And EU treaties.

I can see some very powerful things concerning money - European countries are smaller and more nimble. Sweden does some cool stuff. What if a Swedish Crown corporation enabled a digital currency that could be used globally? Because of the integrity of the institution, and the fact that it's backed possibly by a 'real economy' - it could be a very powerful export. Much in the same way if you make 'jet fighters' you don't just go and sell them you need your countries diplomatic corps to work with you.

EDF in France (Energy) is tied closely to government, and that kind of stuff - i.e. nuclear, generally needs some hefty scale.

But also expect that many of the gains in such situations will be socialized, and maybe not come in the form of crazy billionaire status for founders.

Re: Germans don’t do tech startups – more access to capital might change that

#144
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know enough about Canada. I think many countries produce very smart engineers. I mean, Redis was created by some Italian guys , akka was created by some Swedish guys, and I think Scala was created by the technical University in Zürich. I will never question the high level of smart people in Europe or in any other country in this world. It's just sad that such places don't change the way of doing business, bec…

I entirely agree with your point about global technical talent. Most of the top 40 or 50 countries have plenty of it. I've been reading discussions like this thread for more than two decades, since the early days of the boom in the 1990s. I think the mistake being frequently made in this thread and every other thread, is the premise that you can replicate the super context that the US and China represent. I don't bel…

> In the time a German start-up with identical funding is working on grinding its way through 40 different countries in Europe (most with 1/4 to 1/2 the spending power of consumers in the US) to match the economics of the US market, the US peer already owns the US market, and is assaulting the global market from its position of strength

I don't get this - why everyone assumes that European (say German) startup will start with a painstaking conqest of the European market and only then move to the US? It seems to make much more sense to choose US as your second country, over say France or UK.

Re: Germans don’t do tech startups – more access to capital might change that

#145
post #134
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Could you think of Google made in Europe? In Germany, in France, or in Italy? Some of the biggest companies in the world are from Europe. All of them started as small companies. So, yeah, Google made in Europe is possible. Tech is not a special snowflake industry with other rules than everyone else.

Google made in Europe is possible, facts so far say otherwise, though. If you can mention one or two companies like that, it'd be great. Also, some of the biggest companies in the world are European, that's true. However, they are all but software companies (except for SAP, a b2b company). In Europe we are among the best in pharmaceuticals, cars, chemicals, etc. Sadly enough, software is nothing Europe is ahead with.…

> Now everyone uses WhatsApp.

Funnily, I only know one person who uses WhatsApp.

Re: Germans don’t do tech startups – more access to capital might change that

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know the exact situation in Germany or US, but in Italy, the "no profit, no taxes" is definitely not true. Depending on the company type you registered, there's a significant cost to just keep the ability to run the company to _do_ business in the first place. By experience, the dead cost of the smallest company you can run is between 5-15k per year. It might not seem much, but I've heard here on HN over and…

> And there's no legal way to do the business below that. Actually, there is. Register an Irish company. All the paperwork is in English, costs are low, and you can operate across the EU.

If you are based in Italy and operate the company from there, you will still have to pay the Italian taxes. But yeah at least you should have easier accounting and no running costs.

Re: Germans don’t do tech startups – more access to capital might change that

#147
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know enough about Canada. I think many countries produce very smart engineers. I mean, Redis was created by some Italian guys , akka was created by some Swedish guys, and I think Scala was created by the technical University in Zürich. I will never question the high level of smart people in Europe or in any other country in this world. It's just sad that such places don't change the way of doing business, bec…

I entirely agree with your point about global technical talent. Most of the top 40 or 50 countries have plenty of it. I've been reading discussions like this thread for more than two decades, since the early days of the boom in the 1990s. I think the mistake being frequently made in this thread and every other thread, is the premise that you can replicate the super context that the US and China represent. I don't bel…

> Australia + New Zealand would never provide enough of a base of scale to compete toe to toe with the giants.

Counterpoint: Xero did exactly this. They're a $5B SaaS company almost entirely off the ANZ SMB market, which is their base to attack Quickbooks and MYOB internationally.

Re: Germans don’t do tech startups – more access to capital might change that

#148
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For startups, taxes for corporations don't matter. You only pay taxes on profits. If you are living off venture capital, then you have none. If you are self-funding with organic growth then you have to make sure that you spend all your profits on growth which you should do anyway. Once you have matured, you can still restructure the company like Apple or Google and turn into an Irish or Estonian company. That's the a…

> If you are self-funding with organic growth then you have to make sure that you spend all your profits on growth which you should do anyway In my case I have a mortgage and kids. To make sure we get by, with the high profit tax, there needs to be enough profit left, ergo, I’m not investing as much in the company to leave enough for the government and my family to consume. I’m sure there are enough people who can ge…

That's why you find constellations where a wife owns a company and the husband is the manager or vice versa. The manager gets a regular salary onto which he pays regular income taxes. That way, the income doesn't touch the profit tax. It should be the same if your company has various shareholders.

Re: Germans don’t do tech startups – more access to capital might change that

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. I don't see why I should log in to another website or make an account there when you already have all the info you need right here.

Gotcha. I’ll add it then.

Thank you. I'll see if I can dig up some more active German VCs for you, I should have a list somewhere.

Re: Germans don’t do tech startups – more access to capital might change that

#150

Germany has a lot of drawbacks to be the next silicon valley: * the most difficult tax system in the world. even freelancers have to use accountant services, because most people will not be able to pay taxes properly without it. * high taxes - 42% income tax + Solidaritätszuschlag 5.5% = 47.5%; for corporations it's ~30%. * A LOT of buerocracy. I can't even send an email to tax authorities in my area, because they on…

Few comments on this, I live and work in Germany as Freiberufler for last couple of years or so. > * the most difficult tax system in the world. even freelancers have to use accountant services, because most people will not be able to pay taxes properly without it. Nothing strange about it. When I was self-emoloyed in the UK, I also had to use services of an accountant. > * high taxes - 42% income tax + Solidaritätsz…

Cringe more: https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Missing-Link-Der-Kam...

During the late 80ies, Germany was on track to have 1G fibre connections everywhere by the end of the century.

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