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Germans don’t do tech startups – more access to capital might change that

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Re: Germans don’t do tech startups – more access to capital might change that

#71

More money alone won't solve this particular issue. The link that is referenced at the bottom of the article [1] highlights more of these challenges: - Government Policies: Taxes and Bureaucracy - Governmental Policies: Support and Relevance - Entrepreneurial Education at School Stage The first is a much bigger issue than missing capital. [1] https://www.gemconsortium.org/country-profile/64

Everybody complains about taxes but I don't think that's the most important factor tbh Whenever someone discusses corp. taxes in the US and incorporation it seems it's full of gotchas, corner cases and traps. Not to mention every state having its own legislation as well. Taxes might be higher outside of the US (but then again, they're taxes: no profit, no taxes) but they're not necessarily more complex (though German…

I don't know the exact situation in Germany or US, but in Italy, the "no profit, no taxes" is definitely not true. Depending on the company type you registered, there's a significant cost to just keep the ability to run the company to _do_ business in the first place.

By experience, the dead cost of the smallest company you can run is between 5-15k per year. It might not seem much, but I've heard here on HN over and over how to grow a side/passive income, and there's basically no way to do this here. The moment you want to start a side business, the fixed minimal cost is sunk, so unless you start making a significant sum from the start you're just losing money that eats into your primary income. And there's no legal way to do the business below that. That's not how I understood people in the US do this sort of passive income. It sounds like "no money = no tax", but this is not true here. You often have to pay taxes in advance on the projected income of the next year, even if you never had a business first: the projection is based on god-knows-what market estimates you have no control over.

The market segmentation, language barrier and tax situation in EU is a huge burden. If you're working on a niche product you want to start with a wide basin of users, at least as large as the EU block. Sounds stupid to start in a single country. It's doable, but don't expect to start with a small capital, and typically not with the wannabe-VC we have here in the EU. The 100k for 3ppl/year is not a joke.. a "100k-300k" ballpark is very common for startups here. I'd consider that just for marketing, or even then. With this money you basically cannot do anything serious, just considering how hard is to penetrate the market.

I've yet to see something in the likes of Stripe in the EU. And a decent replacement for Paypal for smaller setups. I'd love to have candidates here. Accepting money is cumbersome if you're small. This is sad.

Workforce is a problem. But not because of talent. The extra regulation here implies a strong commitment when hiring. This forces companies to grow very cautiously. You cannot resize the workforce to match the load. If you grow too much, you may doom the company at the first financial difficulty. This causes a lot of sub-contractual work to be done, with a significant decrease in quality and cohesion. Not to mention, this line of working is being limited more and more over time - I was working as an entrepreneur in the beginning of my career but I cannot do that anymore and have to be regularly employed. I could have started something from scratch much more easily 15 years ago compared to now just due to regulations.

I could go on for pages...

Re: Germans don’t do tech startups – more access to capital might change that

#72
post #32

Germans absolutely do tech startups, in fact they’ve been on the forefront of building tech companies that mirror Silicon Valley, but in German. There’s been a German eBay, PayPal and Facebook. Europe doesn’t really do major companies though, and part of that is certainly a lack of demand to go global from capital investors, but there are other parts as well. Like language and regulation. I went to harzen for holiday…

I am working for startup in Norway that has seen extreme growth in just 2 years. We are in the chatbot/virtual assistance space and our biggest competitors are big multi-billions US companies. When it comes to european languages, we are at least an order of magnitude better in understanding natural language and delivery speed(from start to production) than these big companies. But oh boy how many times EU companies p…

I wonder if the competition in EU is hard enough, if companies always choose the "safe" or "good enough" solution?

Re: Germans don’t do tech startups – more access to capital might change that

#73
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“In the US that’s easy to answer, Google, MS, Apple, amazon. ” That’s a dangerous thing though to push as a one-stop solution I think. There is huge advantages to work for one of these companies, but the drawbacks are also there, and they’re definitely not made for everyone

Well it worked for us in the car space. As engineer coming from university it is clear where you want to work in Germany: Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, Audi, great places to start a career.

> As engineer coming from university it is clear where you want to work in Germany: Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, Audi, great places to start a career.

meh, working with embedded hard-heads on experimental features for a car segment driven by oligarchs, CEOs, and mafiosos.

Re: Germans don’t do tech startups – more access to capital might change that

#74
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to disagree. We don’t do tech startup like in the US or China. Yes, we do have a lot of great B2B industrial startups. But ask yourself this questions: as a developers where would you want to work? In the US that’s easy to answer, Google, MS, Apple, amazon. Where do you want to work in Germany? Which tech company provides the opportunity to earn a lot of money while working on really interesting topics at a la…

I worked in Bay Area for 6 years and never wanted to work for Google. Amazon? That’s a terrible place to work at. Instead, I worked for seed stage startups with ambitious missions such as changing the world. Even some crazy ideas can get funding in US because today’s angels are used to be engineers of yesterday. Germany is not there yet. The market here needs to evolve years to get there. For example, if I could get…

I agree. Also, Please replace the companies I mentioned by of your favorite startup, the result is the same

Re: Germans don’t do tech startups – more access to capital might change that

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everybody complains about taxes but I don't think that's the most important factor tbh Whenever someone discusses corp. taxes in the US and incorporation it seems it's full of gotchas, corner cases and traps. Not to mention every state having its own legislation as well. Taxes might be higher outside of the US (but then again, they're taxes: no profit, no taxes) but they're not necessarily more complex (though German…

I don't know the exact situation in Germany or US, but in Italy, the "no profit, no taxes" is definitely not true. Depending on the company type you registered, there's a significant cost to just keep the ability to run the company to _do_ business in the first place. By experience, the dead cost of the smallest company you can run is between 5-15k per year. It might not seem much, but I've heard here on HN over and…

> there's a significant cost to just keep the ability to run the company to _do_ business in the first place

Yes, but that's a fixed cost, it's not "taxes". Fixed costs exist in other places as well (though 5k is definitely a lot!)

I agree with the other things in your post, and they worry me as well.

Re: Germans don’t do tech startups – more access to capital might change that

#77
post #44

We do have tech startups here in Germany, and quite a few of them. It's just that they tend to be funded differently, and with less of the wild valuation-speculation that goes on in the US. I'm not sure that's a bad thing. As a corollary, the article cites European data protection law (in the context of not being able to collect usage data to improve the product) as a barrier to building startups which ... is also ve…

Exactly, I've worked in 3 companies in Germany that you might call startups without venture capital. I think it is also a cultural issue, with investors and founders alike. Its like, a small company with an independent revenue stream and a small but reliable customer base is worth more than artificially (VC-)inflated companies, that might make it... one day... maybe.

> is worth more than artificially (VC-)inflated companies, that might make it... one day... maybe.

For who? It's probably more satisfying because you are making it without any help. But that's it.

Re: Germans don’t do tech startups – more access to capital might change that

#78
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. * Lack of capital There is just much less VC available, even if normalized for the difference in size. I know the VC scene a little bit in Germany. Total monkeys. * Lack of attitude Germans are much more hierarchical. Both in science and entrepreneurship I found the American personality much more suited. * Lack of vision You will find money in Germany for a personalized cereal/granola mix shipment service (wa…

Why the down-vote? I think I know what I am writing about.

> Total monkeys.

Re: Germans don’t do tech startups – more access to capital might change that

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and than you have to pass a panel deciding whether your "idea" is innovative enough. It reminded me more of a game of buzzword bingo than a viable investment procedure. As your not allowed to incorporate before enter EXIST it is just a waste of time. Not to mention that it all depends on how well you are connected at your university, and if government funds are available.

I'd say the chances of getting a grant are very good, back in the day the success rate was around 50 % and you could apply up to three times (to my knowledge), which made it highly likely that you'd get the money if you were persevering. It's true that you have to choose a good university as the quality of the provided coaching and mentorship varies wildly. I can recommend LMU & TU Munich as well as TU Berlin or one…

I tried a while back. Not being at one of the universities you mentioned ,I would have been an extension from TU Munich. Funds where hard to come by at that time (right after the elections, so no governmant, no government budget, no EXIST funds). In the end, I talked to all relevant profs at my university, they talked to the giys at TUM, and the feed-back was "no need to tey, your idea is not innovative enough. Try a bank or bet your house."

Also the expected time line was around 6 months to get into the program, so for me it would have just been a colosal waste of time.

EDIT: While coaching is anive thing, it is access to follow-up funding that matters. At let's be honest in that regard YC is different league all together. And if you don't need funding beyond 100k you really could have used bank in the first place.

Re: Germans don’t do tech startups – more access to capital might change that

#80
post #51

We do have tech startups here in Germany, and quite a few of them. It's just that they tend to be funded differently, and with less of the wild valuation-speculation that goes on in the US. I'm not sure that's a bad thing. As a corollary, the article cites European data protection law (in the context of not being able to collect usage data to improve the product) as a barrier to building startups which ... is also ve…

Well, I am a german and i'd argue we'd need to do it the SV way to have the same kind of global success stories. Sure your small german startup can be GDPR compliant and find it's niche, but making products of massive global scale is inherently harder here than it is in the US because of a number of things, only one of which is data privacy. Not saying as a consumer i do not prefer EU privacy laws, I do, but it will…

This may come as a surprise but most big companies are just making everything GDPR compliant for all users because it's easier and it's not like the restrictions you need to put in place affect data quality too much
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