Voting Machine Used in Half of U.S. Is Vulnerable to Attack, Report Finds • Hacker News Board

Re: Voting Machine Used in Half of U.S. Is Vulnerable to Attack, Report Finds

#161

Post by avar » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 10:51 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #148

avar wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's plenty of countries where neither of those is true, but the voting system requires a national ID and has better outcomes by any reasonable metric than the US. So you don't really need those things, but they may be proxy issues for other hard-to-solve issues.

I am not very familiar with the systems other countries use so I am genuinely curious which ones you are referring to here and whether they are comparable to the US. The US has a centuries long history of laws designed to make it harder for "undesirables" to vote. The US's racial and socioeconomic makeup and its history of oppression of those groups makes this a much more contentious issue than some other countries t…

E.g. in Iceland you can vote with a driver's license, a passport or a national ID. Those cost, respectively, $45, $110 and $40. Although I see now the first national ID you get issued in your life is free, but if you ever lose it you pay the fee to renew it.

It's the same sort of thing in most European countries, you need to prove who you are, and usually doing that costs some one-off nominal fee. Voting is always going to carry some cost, whether that's money or in externalities imposed on voters.

I'm not saying Iceland and other European countries are "comparable to the US", I'm sure we could spend all day moving that particular goal post.

I was just pointing out that there's nothing wrong per-se with requiring ID to vote. I'm somewhat familiar with the US history on the matter, and realize that in practice, and I think uniquely in the US, it's a wedge issue that's historically been motivated by voter disenfranchisement.

But it's important to separate that practical concern about particular implementations from the very notion that having a national ID system and using it for things like voting could never work.

I'm curious about how this works in practice. If you're a tourist visiting the US during a vote can you just show up to a voting polling station and cast a vote? If you don't have to show your ID what happens from the time you walk up to a polling station until you cast your vote and walk out again?

Re: Voting Machine Used in Half of U.S. Is Vulnerable to Attack, Report Finds

#162

Post by mc32 » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 10:53 PM UTC

kaycebasques wrote: post #41

The HN consensus seems to be that digital voting is very difficult to do right. I trust the consensus opinion, but this also makes me sad. The bigger picture that I think we’re missing here is the opportunity for huge-scale direct democracy. I know the usual debates against DD, but I think there’s ways to safeguard against those problems. E.g. you can’t vote on an issue without hearing both sides of it and passing a…

>”E.g. you can’t vote on an issue without hearing both sides of it and passing a test that demonstrates that you understand the pros and cons...”

I think this would be thoroughly gamed. You’d get “cheat sheets” on how to answer, or more importantly, you’d disenfranchise poorly educated people or people with learning disabilities (who afaik, still have a right to vote.)

Re: Voting Machine Used in Half of U.S. Is Vulnerable to Attack, Report Finds

#163

Post by kbenson » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 11:10 PM UTC

jawilson2 wrote: post #111

vec wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Colorado. A couple of weeks before the midterms I'm going to get a packet in the mail containing my ballot, instructions for filling it out, a pamphlet where every candidate on the ballot gets a paragraph or two to make their case, and a prepaid return envelope. I fill out my ballot at my leisure, stuff it in the envelope, sign the envelope underneath the flap, and drop it in a mailbox. There's a receipt wi…

And in some states, like Florida, if you vote by mail it is 10x less likely to be counted.[1] Our democracy is broken, and the people capable of fixing it are actively incentivized to keep it broken. [1] https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/state-p...

> And in some states, like Florida, if you vote by mail it is 10x less likely to be counted

The headline of that article is "If you vote by mail in Florida, it’s 10 times more likely that ballot won’t count". That's not equivalent to what you said.

If there's a 99% chance your vote will count and 1% chance it won't, a 10 times more likely to not count changes that to a 90% will count/10% won't count chance. Using your wording, it would change it to a 9% will count/91% won't count chance. Those are vastly different things.

Re: Voting Machine Used in Half of U.S. Is Vulnerable to Attack, Report Finds

#164

Post by wtallis » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 11:15 PM UTC

robotrout wrote: post #156

wtallis wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but how is any of that relevant to voter ID? If you really care about integrity of the voting system, then you should also care about prioritizing the problems that are real, easily exploited, and have the greatest potential for harm. Voter ID is largely a solution looking for a problem, with undeniable side effects of voter suppression. It's being made into a partisan issue not by its opponents but by the prop…

Nonsense. We've been asking for voter id for years and you've been opposing it for years. Why is that? You talk about conspiracy theories. This notion that there is this huge population of legal, eligible voters who are functioning in our society without ID is ludicrous. But if you want to implement paper ballots across the board at the same time, or even 1st, than let's make that happen. As you say, any progress is…

> We've been asking for voter id for years and you've been opposing it for years. Why is that?

Ignoring for the moment how improper it is for you to take such a personally accusative tone: The voter ID opposition has been thoroughly justified by the lack of evidence that the problems it solves are real enough to need solving, and by the fact that even the slightest awareness of the context surrounding these voter ID proposals makes it clear that they are not good-faith attempts to make our elections more fair.

In short: nobody's falling for the lies. They're too transparent.

Re: Voting Machine Used in Half of U.S. Is Vulnerable to Attack, Report Finds

#165

Post by fortomorrow » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 11:22 PM UTC

bdamm wrote: post #151

fortomorrow wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FYI. Trump won every income bracket above $50k, while Hillary only won those below https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/11/08/us/politics/e...

That's not what the graph shows at all. The graph shows that there is no statistical correlation between income and votes, except that lower incomes slightly preferred Clinton. The problem with this data is that it doesn't appear to be weighted by electoral college result, so we don't get to actually see what the impact on the election result is. And, even worse, the survey appears to include the question "Did you vo…

Lol come on now, no need to be facetious. There are six income brackets broke down with the vote tallies for the respective candidates. The exit polling is not done for the Electoral College, and does not change the fact that every income bracket greater than 50k voted for Trump more than they did Hillary

Re: Voting Machine Used in Half of U.S. Is Vulnerable to Attack, Report Finds

#166

Post by wizzairflyer » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 11:23 PM UTC

eftychis wrote: post #109

nickik wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do that in Switzerlamd as well. I have never voted by going to some place. Voter turnout is still not very high.

Hmm. I wonder why? Any ideas?

There's 4 voting sessions per year and, in my own opinion, about half of the topics being voted on are quite silly. This might induce some voting fatigue.

Re: Voting Machine Used in Half of U.S. Is Vulnerable to Attack, Report Finds

#167

Post by wpdev_63 » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 11:28 PM UTC

It's asinine that we are still debating this. There really isn't much to debate at this point.

Re: Voting Machine Used in Half of U.S. Is Vulnerable to Attack, Report Finds

#168

Post by graeme » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 11:45 PM UTC

graeme wrote: post #35

ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems simple enough to just make it a national holiday.

The system is designed to prevent (certain) people from voting. So while a national holiday would make sense in the abstract, it goes contrary to the goals of those who make the laws.

To those downvoting: voter suppression in the us isn't exactly a secret: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_suppression_in_the_Uni...

In that line, a national holiday for voting would encourage voting. As such, all the groups pushing voter suppression would be against a holiday.

Re: Voting Machine Used in Half of U.S. Is Vulnerable to Attack, Report Finds

#169

Post by dev_dull » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 11:47 PM UTC

tstrimple wrote: post #159

dev_dull wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obtaining an ID card can be as easy or as painful as our local governments decide it to be. Amazing, it’s the most painful I have ever experience here in California where the DMV borders on insanity. I would think such a progressive state would care more about the burden it places on its citizens than on maintaining tight control over the process but such is California.

I was able to schedule my DMV appointment in California and was in and out.

Congratulations. Did you wave goodbye to the huge crowds of visibly frustrated people who have been waiting for hours on your way out?

Re: Voting Machine Used in Half of U.S. Is Vulnerable to Attack, Report Finds

#170

Post by dev_dull » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 11:48 PM UTC

InitialLastName wrote: post #105

slg wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because citizens are not required to have ID and those that don't have one are disproportionately racial minorities and/or in lower socioeconomic classes. Democrats would be much more willing to allow ID to be required to vote if there was a national ID card issued to every citizen, but Republicans would be against any system that would try to create a national ID.

Yes, the core irony that the same people: a) Want to make having an ID as a prerequisite for voting and b) Are deeply against any form of national ID card (or anything else that makes it cheap and easy to get an ID) It's almost ( almost ) like they want to prevent poor people from cities (who don't need cars) from voting.

Who says it needs to be a federal (national) ID card?

Also it’s hard for poor people to get ID cards because our governments make the process hard and time consuming. It’s a manufactured and not inherent problem.