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SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private Deal

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Re: SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private Deal

#601

Post by JoshCole »

matwood wrote: post #107
empath75 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say the shorts don't have any power to hurt tesla, but much of tesla's and elon musk's personal debt is backed by Tesla shares. If the price dips too low, it's potentially catastrophic for the company and him.

What exactly did the shorts do here? Musk has brought on all this scrutiny himself. The shorts didn't bail out Solar City, miss nearly every production target, use TSLA as a way to personally finance a lavish lifestyle, or commit securities fraud. The shorts are all over this stock because of issues like the above. They were not the cause of those issues.

The idea that Tesla is drastically missing its production targets is overstated. It originally claimed that what was later named the Model 3 would begin production in 2017. This claim was made as far back as 2014. This occurred as projected. It has since been ramping up steadily. The rate of that ramp up has been slower than initially projected, but is well within the long-term projected numbers.

Critically, Tesla ramp up is already high enough that it is now leading the US in sales of electric vehicles. The numbers are decidedly in favor of Tesla, who sells almost as many vehicles a month as the other electric providers sell in a year.

This should be a good thing in your eyes, considering the impact of climate change which will be felt by this generation. However, the legacy of effect of sowing doubt about climate change and automobiles is bearing itself out. The seeds were sown and they now sprout. Enough idiots were convinced to bet against renewable energy and now they're going to do their best to damn the rest us.

This seems to me like a woe to the world moment. The world is trying to take down someone seeking its good. It reminds me of the persecution of Jesus Christ. Read through this thread and see the false witnesses being refuted by his co-laborers and friends. Read the testimony of the people saying that his product is good. Read the empirical reports on the quality of his work.

When the righteous are persecuted, it is done, not because they are evil, but because they are good. Nobody is afraid of the incompetent fool, but rival automaker executives line up to plead that Elon Musk should be removed from his position, now that they realize the danger they are in.

Re: SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private Deal

#602

Post by village-idiot »

theptip wrote: post #572

I think there's a bit of overexcitement going on in this thread; it doesn't look to me like Musk is going to jail on this one. This part is interesting: > The SEC had crafted a settlement with Musk that it was preparing to file Thursday morning, the Wall Street Journal reported, citing unidentified people familiar with the matter. Musk’s lawyers called SEC lawyers to say they were no longer interested in proceeding w…

This immediate matter was never about jail. The SEC doesn’t jail you, they just make you poor.

What’s triggering the discussion of jail is the rumor that the SEC referred some of this to the DOJ. That’s when you start talking about jail.

Re: SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private Deal

#603

Post by village-idiot »

anonytrary wrote: post #365
Animats wrote: post #246

He definitely lost it. And it's going to cost him. This is an open and shut case against Musk. He definitely sent out that tweet. Yes, maybe just not enough sleep and too many drugs. Not a good excuse. Tesla might do better with a new CEO. They're past the vision stage. Tesla's problems today are all those of running a big auto plant. Musk might do better focusing on Space-X.

Elon Musk has always had a disdain for the responsibility of running a public company, it seems perfectly reasonable that he tweet, in exasperation, that he wishes to make the company private. Why do so many people in this thread want the only guy making (rockets && green cars && batteries && solar && ...) to fail so badly? The guy smokes weed once on camera, now he's a witch and needs to be hunted down? We care abou…

I care because he’s wrecking Tesla with dumb decisions that a bit of good advice would have fixed. Now he’s dragged his own company into unnecessary legal risk to soothe his own ego.

If you want Tesla to live, you would cheer about his immature ass being kicked out to the curb.

Re: SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private Deal

#604

Post by village-idiot »

anonytrary wrote: post #459
dabockster wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, you're not supposed to say anything publicly that can manipulate the stock price. For a person in Elon Musk's position, it is incredibly easy to drum up hype about a stock from a public media source (in this case, Twitter) then secretly sell off stock at the higher price causing it to dip further than it was at before. This is called pump and dumping and is very illegal in the United States (read up on The…

> In the US, you're not supposed to say anything publicly that can manipulate the stock price Not quite. You can't intentionally say things for the purpose of manipulating the price, you can still say things if they affect the price -- it is impossible not to, since every little thing a CEO does affects the price to some extent (econophysics?). The lawsuit would have to prove that Musk tweeted with the intention of m…

That’s not the bar for this case, since it’s civil. Proving negligence is enough, and the burden of proof is “preponderance of evidence”, not “presumption of innocence.”

Re: SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private Deal

#605

Post by village-idiot »

jhall1468 wrote: post #560
monochromatic wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you figure it’s open and shut?

It's not. They have to prove intent. Musk didn't make any transactions while the stock was on the rise, so intent (which is hard to prove) and benefit (which can't be proven) are both a huge problem with this case. He deserves the lawsuit, but this is just to force his hand on a deal.

Wrong on two levels.

Intent doesn’t matter here, the SEC is alleging negligence (read the actual complaint). Remember that this is a civil case, not a criminal one.

Second is that he’s being accused of securities fraud, not insider trading. So the SEC doesn’t actually need to prove that he benefited, only that rules were broken.

Re: SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private Deal

#608

Post by spookthesunset »

andys627 wrote: post #570
not2b wrote: post #406

He was trying to bankrupt the short-sellers, and he was doing it by lying: the price would soar, their options would be called, and they'd lose their shirts, all for a lie. When you're head of a public company, that's a crime. Not only will the SEC come after him, but the short sellers can probably sue him too. I have huge respect for his engineering ability, but he has messed up badly. He's overextended and it seems…

> He was trying to bankrupt the short-sellers, and he was doing it by lying I'm out of the loop - can you point me to some proof of this?

Uh, it is pretty much all over the news, man. Unless you are living under a rock...

Re: SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private Deal

#609

Post by citrablue »

apatters wrote: post #598
chollida1 wrote: post #6

This comment I made a few weeks ago is coming alot closer to the truth than I would have expected. I hope for Space X and Tesla's sake that the reports of a directory and Executive ban don't come true. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18016250#18016292 SpaceX is doing well, Tesla has pulled itself back from the brink and may actually become a profitable car company. All Elon had to do was keep his head down and n…

> All Elon had to do was keep his head down and not pick twitter fights.... You know what, this could be said about a lot of people, including the freaking President. I'm beginning to wonder if the real problem is Twitter. Specifically the most fundamental aspect of its design -- the ability to blast off brief messages to thousands of people any time, anywhere. Maybe we're learning that that this design leads people,…

Really? You want to blame cocaine and hard booze?

1 to many communications is useful. Many to many communications (email) is useful. Push comms are useful.

People are responsible for what they do, and what they say. Be it drugs or (I can't believe I'm saying this), Twitter.

The most interesting thing is that many would blame Trump more for his Twitter mis-use than people who mis-use substances. And, conversely, many blame drug abusers but excuse Trump.

In the end, we are either responsible for our actions or we are not. I believe the former is a crucial piece for functioning society; it needs to be tempered with a non-judgemental attitude and treated as a public health issue if it spreads too far.

Re: SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private Deal

#610

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

davidparks21 wrote: post #593

I'm quite doubtful this suit will succeed. To succeed the SEC would need to prove intent to disrupt the market. You can certainly show that he had a reason to attack short sellers, but he also has a long history of communicating in exactly that manner. He probably also has plenty of evidence of meetings that justify the statement. If that assumption is correct, given his historical use of this medium of communication…

> He probably also has plenty of evidence of meetings that justify the statement.

By Musk's own description I don't see how any reasonable human being could interpret the meetings he said he had with the Saudis as meaning "funding secured". The verbal gymnastics he tried to use when explaining his tweet in saying "I knew we could get a deal" made me think "Come on Elon, I don't even think you believe the bullshit you're peddling."

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