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Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#441

Post by s73v3r_ »

08-15 wrote: post #176
simias wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I can tell Linus's feedback is almost always constructive in that it generally points out precisely why he thinks something should or shouldn't that way. The problem is that he sometimes splices personal attacks and uses an overly aggressive tone which doesn't really help anything. I can somewhat justify using a very corrosive tone if you're not in a place of power and you want to be sure that you're not ig…

> From a purely pragmatic point of view I don't see what his corrosive tone gets him. I don't know whether it actually, but I think Linus becomes "corrosive" to get rid of someone. Certain developers disappearing is not a side effect, it's the intended effect. If you have a "contributor" who keeps submitting the same faulty patch over and over, who doesn't listen, but keeps making a fuss about his "contribution" not…

The problem is, it's not just the intended targets that go away with that behavior. A lot of spectators who see that decide they no longer wish to put themselves through that, and leave as well.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#442

Post by sonnyblarney »

hugh-avherald wrote: post #383
sonnyblarney wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Not always. Some of the best feedback I've ever gotten was when I was told that what I wrote was "crap". What's not constructive about that feedback?" reply " No. Saying something is 'crap' may be true, but it's definitely not constructive. 'Constructive' feedback helps you understand why it's wrong. So, 'constructive' would be: "hey that code was very problematic, and here are the reasons why: etc. etc. etc.." "Whe…

I abhor this kind of advice. "Hey this code was very problematic ..." is incredibly grating and I would think a lot less of a supervisor that chose to give feedback with such a veil. Not sure about "This code is crap", but claiming it is less constructive than your example is a very superficial reading. A supervisor who told me "Your code is crap" would seem a lot more inviting than one who put the condescending rema…

Totally disagree.

Saying something is 'problematic' is not remotely condescending. It's just a reasonably objective way of saying there are problems.

Saying something is 'crap' is neither more authentic nor more informative, it's absolutely not constructive and it certainly isn't polite.

I think you may have difficulty interpreting communication when you take things literally the opposite of what they are i.e. 'problematic' as some kind of 'crypto-speak' when it's not, and 'crap' - which is actually and objectively condescending and objectively not constructive.

If a piece of code needs work in a more general way, your manager's best option is to communicate that candidly in an impersonal and clear manner. Maybe with a tiny bit of sugar coating depending on the situation.

So 'the code needs a lot of work, specifically in these areas: a, b, c '. Or 'the code needs a lot of work and I see some ugly patters in there, maybe due to some habits you have developed elsewhere, let's work on these things specifically: a, b, c etc..' is appropriate.

The only time you can say code is 'crap' is when you have a very good relationship with someone, and a fair degree of mutual respect, and you also know that they'll never interpret it too negatively. As in 'heyzeus Joe that last checkin was abysmal, see: a, b and c ... and no more watching the pro-bowl while coding for you my man!' ... is what I could get away with someone I've known for quite a while.

You could use 'crap' in a public forum directed maybe at a group or company, but never publicly towards any individual.

If you're in charge of a major open source project, you can tell your staff that 'Joe from Montana's code is crap and we basically should ignore is pull requests' ... but you wouldn't say that to Joe himself.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#443

Post by gdy »

trukterious wrote: post #237
Vinnl wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish there was a way to get more of those ideas to me, and people in general, and less of the "I drink white male tears".

I don't think that there are any garbage people. Everybody has some good in them. (This doesn't imply we shouldn't set some boundaries).

Even Hitler has killed Hitler after all.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#444

Post by [deleted] »

notacoward wrote: post #372
gambler wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure turning public forums into language/tone correctness minefields does miracles to encourage participation from people who aren't native language speakers and aren't keenly aware of nuances western socio-political background. Miracles.

Public forums are already language/tone minefields. Non-native speakers already have to understand the dominant slang and tone cues to interpret what the "natives" are saying, putting the burden on them. Using neutral language isn't that hard, and helps relieve that burden. I never suggested replacing one set of codes with another. BTW, sarcasm is really helpful when dealing with non-native speakers. Your sincere con…

[deleted]

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#445

Post by gdy »

pseudalopex wrote: post #434
unbroken wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I can tell, unconscious bias has fallen victim to the replication crisis. https://www.thecut.com/2017/01/psychologys-racism-measuring-...

The article seems to focus on the Implicit Association Test. Other studies have used devices like identical job applications with different names.

Is there a meta-study of Cochrane quality on this subject? Because, you know, replication crisis.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#446

Post by gdy »

noir_lord wrote: post #343
Vinnl wrote: post #64

His feelings about two of the "sides" of this argument are so recognisable. I'm generally in favour of going out of my way e.g. to make minorities feel more welcome to compensate for the natural tendency to make them feel less welcome. However, the nastiness of some of the people in "my camp" pushes me away from it and makes me reluctant to openly support that cause. In effect, they're really counterproductive, and t…

For me it's sorta the same, I'm broadly in favour of a CoC generally as a codified minimum standard of behaviour but I dislike intensely some of the people who then move in and use the CoC to attack everyone the disagree with (I'm not naming people because well that's not fair) often breaching the spirit of the CoC they pushed for in the first place, that or treat any discussion of whether the Coc is a good idea as a…

"I'm not naming people because well that's not fair"

Why is it not fair?

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#447

Post by kthejoker2 »

kyberias wrote: post #414
mcguire wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is, absolutely. If you view software development as entertainment. If you view it asa profession, maybe not.

Not true. The fact that professional software developer sometimes uses profane language does not mean it is not funny. I think Linus was actually trying to be funny with those statements. Some of us understand that humor, some of us don't.

I understand the humor, I just don't appreciate or see the value of "being funny" in a personally insulting way to a code commit.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#448

Post by JohnBooty »

chrisbrandow wrote: post #382
taeric wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends entirely on how good you are at faking it. That is, if it can be easily seen that you are faking; then no, it is not as good. Not even close. Your brother scenario is silly. If someone calls and I don't want to help, but can. I'll be honest and make my own choice. If they ask if this is what I'd truly like to be doing, I'll always say no. However, in most cases, I don't actually care what I'm doing. Could I c…

To me the more important factor for whether “faking it” is adequate is what one’s motivation is. If it is merely as an act of fakery because other people expect something, then it’s a lot more like to be an act without merit. If it’s an integral part of striving towards being genuinely able to exhibit the behavior in question, then it’s a lot more likely to be received well.

I absolutely agree. If you're e.g. merely pretending to be nice to somebody in order to exploit them or harm them, that's obviously not a good thing.

I left angle that out of my original post because I really don't think anybody is doubting Linus' motives here.

I'm aware that some people think his attempt at self-improvement is misguided or silly, but I haven't heard a single person question whether his motives are negative.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#449

Post by s73v3r_ »

jlawson wrote: post #279
matthewmacleod wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s essentially a cliché false dichotomy. Wouldn’t it be even nicer to work with someone who can express how they feel in a constructive and helpful manner?

Lots of people don't have the cognitive ability to hit the perfect mixture of expressing every necessary criticism with sufficient force, without hurting any feelings more than absolutely necessary, without taking energy away from completing other tasks. It would be nice if we could find a person who was a world class 100x programmer AND project organizer AND had decades of sustained high productivity AND had absolut…

If you had someone who was technically deficient, would you just push them away, or would you push them to get better? Why not the same with someone who doesn't have the best interpersonal skills? Why shouldn't we push those people to get better?

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#450

Post by s73v3r_ »

maxxxxx wrote: post #68
matthewmacleod wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s essentially a cliché false dichotomy. Wouldn’t it be even nicer to work with someone who can express how they feel in a constructive and helpful manner?

Sure. But in reality as a leader you sometimes have to be willing to piss off some people. You can't always be nice. Sometimes you have to draw a clear boundary.

Absolutely. That doesn't mean you have to tell them you wish they were retroactively aborted.
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