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Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#271

Post by compcoffee »

beaconstudios wrote: post #158
evanspa wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you feel it is "the natural tendency" to make minorities feel less welcome? My natural tendency -- and anecdotally, pretty much everyone I know -- is to treat people well regardless of their race; to treat people the way you'd want to be treated.

the question of the status quo is itself politicised. One side (progressive sphere) says people who don't belong to the normed group (cis-white-hetero-male in US/EUR) are inherently treated worse, either consciously or unconsciously (bias), and conscious effort has to be made to overcome this. Another (classical liberal sphere) says that exclusionary behaviour are the exception and most people abide by the golden rul…

>cis-white-hetero-male in US/EUR) are inherently treated worse, either consciously or unconsciously (bias)

This is hard for me to wrap my head around, because in almost any social or work environment I've ever been in, cis-white-hetero-males make up a small subset of the population.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#272

Post by matz1 »

eropple wrote: post #269
matz1 wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't is easier to change one person namely myself, rather than try to change one other person, let alone many? The culture and the world always evolving and changing, it can be worse or better or whatever, most importantly for me is how can I make myself adapt to the every situation and make the best of it.

I don't care about "easier" and I don't think you should either. Why would "easier" be even on the radar? "Changing yourself" and letting rot fester is of little value to anyone. Be so mildly discomforted as to push back on other people's nasty behaviors and you make the world a better place. Do what is right.

Because is practical, obviously changing myself to adapt to every situation has value for me, it makes a world a better place for me. what is right is relative, this is what I think Right.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#273

Post by bluntfang »

evanspa wrote: post #133
Vinnl wrote: post #64

His feelings about two of the "sides" of this argument are so recognisable. I'm generally in favour of going out of my way e.g. to make minorities feel more welcome to compensate for the natural tendency to make them feel less welcome. However, the nastiness of some of the people in "my camp" pushes me away from it and makes me reluctant to openly support that cause. In effect, they're really counterproductive, and t…

Why do you feel it is "the natural tendency" to make minorities feel less welcome? My natural tendency -- and anecdotally, pretty much everyone I know -- is to treat people well regardless of their race; to treat people the way you'd want to be treated.

If you are a white male working as a software engineer, your natural tendency comes from a place of privilege, and it's good to understand that fact and to understand that even if you think you're woke, you're still affected by the socialization of discrimination.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#274

Post by pjc50 »

beaconstudios wrote: post #247
pjc50 wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Per sibling comment, the question of whether discrimination happens, consciously or unconsciously, is one amenable to factual analysis and is not a political question. What is political is whether anything should be done about it. > exclusionary behaviour are the exception and most people abide by the golden rule So the question for this has to be: when do you think the date was at which "most people" started to do t…

personally, I think the majority of people have acted like this (or perhaps more "live and let live") by default for a long time. However, basic morality is not the only operator of people's behaviour, and other operators can override morality such as economic exploitation, group conflict, education, stereotypical perception of other groups, and so on. Basically, it's a really complicated series of systemic issues th…

> the majority of people have acted like this (or perhaps more "live and let live") by default for a long time

The majority of people where at what times?

Does it actually matter why people hate, only that they do?

Your argument seems to be that all racism etc is systemic and structural, and therefore there's no individual responsibility?

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#275

Post by notacoward »

evanspa wrote: post #133
Vinnl wrote: post #64

His feelings about two of the "sides" of this argument are so recognisable. I'm generally in favour of going out of my way e.g. to make minorities feel more welcome to compensate for the natural tendency to make them feel less welcome. However, the nastiness of some of the people in "my camp" pushes me away from it and makes me reluctant to openly support that cause. In effect, they're really counterproductive, and t…

Why do you feel it is "the natural tendency" to make minorities feel less welcome? My natural tendency -- and anecdotally, pretty much everyone I know -- is to treat people well regardless of their race; to treat people the way you'd want to be treated.

"Natural tendency" does not mean intention. Few people intend to make minorities feel less welcome, but many more adhere to habits and cultural norms which have that effect. Here's an example from right here a couple of days ago:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18061725

Another example: where I work, I recently took someone to task for saying "your shit is broken" in a very public thread. It's a phrase I've seen too many times at this company. Sure, it might just seem casual to a California millennial, no big deal, but it can come across very differently to someone from a higher-context and more status-conscious culture - e.g. most of Asia, and therefore a significant portion of our workforce. It can have strong and lasting effects on their willingness to engage with you personally, or with the broader community.

Am I saying that we should all dumb down our language to the blandest common denominator? F* no. The important thing is to calibrate your behavior to the environment. If you know the people you're talking to, and the subject of the comment is not personal, let fly. Knock yourself out. If you're talking to someone you don't know, in front of many others you don't know, and the comment could be interpreted as personal (hint: if "you" or "your" is in it), then maybe you should apply a measure of decorum and cultural sensitivity.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#276

Post by mikeash »

ethbro wrote: post #213
mikeash wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish people would stop being so concerned about what other people think. If treating people well is the right thing to do, then do it. If people are nasty when they try to make you treat people well, ignore them. When people say that they wanted to do the right thing but got pushed away because the advocates were jerks, that just sounds like an excuse. That’s not to say that it’s ok to be a jerk just because you’re…

Civility is the bedrock on which justice is built. That's why Gandhi, King, and Mandela effected change. And so many passionate others did not.

It’s also why Washington and Lincoln were able to effect change. Wait a minute....

In any case, you’re missing the point. The point is that if you use someone’s incivility as an excuse to behave badly, you’re not doing it right. It’s fine if you don’t like them, it’s fine if you want them do change their approach, but if they push you away from treating people well, that’s on you, not them.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#277

Post by jhasse »

dsajames wrote: post #253
Vinnl wrote: post #64

His feelings about two of the "sides" of this argument are so recognisable. I'm generally in favour of going out of my way e.g. to make minorities feel more welcome to compensate for the natural tendency to make them feel less welcome. However, the nastiness of some of the people in "my camp" pushes me away from it and makes me reluctant to openly support that cause. In effect, they're really counterproductive, and t…

What privileges do you have when interacting with people?

I understand most inside jokes from western culture.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#278

Post by ravenstine »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #195
davidkuhta wrote: post #41

Anyone else get a chuckle that out of the myriad of relevant quotes, the author selected, "He... once [described] an Intel fix as 'complete and utter garbage'". Good for Linus, I'm happy that he's not looking to adjust his technical expectations: "technically wrong is still technically wrong, and I won't start accepting bad code just to make people feel better about themselves."

There's nothing wrong with saying something is crap, if it is actually that, and if there isn't really an individual on the other side. Generally, it's probably not a good idea to use such language with an individual. But if it's 'not good' - you can say that. But finally there's no reason to demean individuals arbitrarily. This discussion is wayward: it's not about groups, minorities or being PC ... it's really just…

> But you can't be an arbitrary jerk.

Why not? Who invented that rule?

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#279

Post by jlawson »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #21
stemc43 wrote: post #10

If not for this guy - we wouldn't have Linux. I'd much rather work with honest person that can tell me how he really feels then nice spoken liars.

That’s essentially a cliché false dichotomy. Wouldn’t it be even nicer to work with someone who can express how they feel in a constructive and helpful manner?

Lots of people don't have the cognitive ability to hit the perfect mixture of expressing every necessary criticism with sufficient force, without hurting any feelings more than absolutely necessary, without taking energy away from completing other tasks.

It would be nice if we could find a person who was a world class 100x programmer AND project organizer AND had decades of sustained high productivity AND had absolutely perfect social skills.

But in real life people like this are hard to find, so we have to deal with imperfect people.

The question is: Which kind of imperfection do you prefer for this purpose? Someone who is technically weak? Disorganized? Can't stand the pressure of leading a massive organization? Can't sustain effort over time? Writes unnecessarily mean criticism that drives some people away? Writes too-soft criticism that fails to correct technical failings? Choose at least one.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#280

Post by mcguire »

davidkuhta wrote: post #41

Anyone else get a chuckle that out of the myriad of relevant quotes, the author selected, "He... once [described] an Intel fix as 'complete and utter garbage'". Good for Linus, I'm happy that he's not looking to adjust his technical expectations: "technically wrong is still technically wrong, and I won't start accepting bad code just to make people feel better about themselves."

They could have taken a quote from 2012:

""...should be retroactively aborted. Who the f+ck does idiotic things like that? How did they not die as babies, considering that they were likely too stupid to find a tit to suck on?""

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