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Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#431

Post by unbroken »

DFHippie wrote: post #180
beaconstudios wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the question of the status quo is itself politicised. One side (progressive sphere) says people who don't belong to the normed group (cis-white-hetero-male in US/EUR) are inherently treated worse, either consciously or unconsciously (bias), and conscious effort has to be made to overcome this. Another (classical liberal sphere) says that exclusionary behaviour are the exception and most people abide by the golden rul…

It is important to note that this isn't merely a matter of opinion. One can study the effect/presence of unconscious bias objectively and quantitatively. These studies have large error bars but they use conventional and accepted statistics. To the extent it is politicized, it's politicized the way evolution and climate change are: groups who are politically opposed have opinions about the consequences of these studie…

As far as I can tell, unconscious bias has fallen victim to the replication crisis.

https://www.thecut.com/2017/01/psychologys-racism-measuring-...

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#432

Post by unbroken »

wccrawford wrote: post #395
mike22223333 wrote: post #317

I'm probably a person with not so great social skills. I'm a person of color. I do not need SJW's to defend me. Please do not destroy our culture. All of a sudden this movement to add "diversity" and other crap is just not right. I agree there is some casual racism/racism for the sake of racism in the community, but I am personally not even bothered and it has never affected me (I ignored them and they stopped and so…

I'm white. I decided long ago that everyone needs to treat everyone fairly. Part of that is basing promotions/etc on merit, but part of that is understanding that people are different and have different strengths and weaknesses, some of which are because of the culture they come from. This applies equally to whites and people of color, rich and poor, nationalities, and more. I have yet to find a culture that didn't h…

> If I'm in a meeting and stop someone from ruling out a potential candidate because of skin color, did I harm their culture?

How could you possibly know the candidate is being ruled out for skin color?

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#433

Post by taeric »

JohnBooty wrote: post #412
taeric wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends entirely on how good you are at faking it. That is, if it can be easily seen that you are faking; then no, it is not as good. Not even close. Your brother scenario is silly. If someone calls and I don't want to help, but can. I'll be honest and make my own choice. If they ask if this is what I'd truly like to be doing, I'll always say no. However, in most cases, I don't actually care what I'm doing. Could I c…

> Your brother scenario is silly. Sure, analogies are pretty flawed usually. I sort of regret typing it. Let's get back to Linus. What's the difference between: (a) A person staying respectful in their emails because it is natural and effortless for him --and-- (b) Linus staying respectful in his emails because he's putting in conscious effort to stay respectful I would argue that there's no difference! Because it's…

Bringing it back to Linus is easy. The times he stayed technical and on point, he gets things done very well. The times he chest thumped back at someone chest thumping to him, it actually worked decently. The times he just started chest thumping to a quiet person trying to help, that is just obnoxious.

That is, in this case, I'd argue he isn't "faking" it to not bring in outside crap. Just leave it out. Stay on point for the topic at hand and he does amazing. I'd go so far as to say I think he is a bit of a role model in those situations. Deservedly so.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#434

Post by pseudalopex »

unbroken wrote: post #431
DFHippie wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is important to note that this isn't merely a matter of opinion. One can study the effect/presence of unconscious bias objectively and quantitatively. These studies have large error bars but they use conventional and accepted statistics. To the extent it is politicized, it's politicized the way evolution and climate change are: groups who are politically opposed have opinions about the consequences of these studie…

As far as I can tell, unconscious bias has fallen victim to the replication crisis. https://www.thecut.com/2017/01/psychologys-racism-measuring-...

The article seems to focus on the Implicit Association Test. Other studies have used devices like identical job applications with different names.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#435

Post by maxxxxx »

sumeno wrote: post #405
maxxxxx wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. But in reality as a leader you sometimes have to be willing to piss off some people. You can't always be nice. Sometimes you have to draw a clear boundary.

What is the scenario where it is necessary for a leader to tell someone they should have been aborted?

Probably never. I think he should hire someone who checks his E-mails and asks him "Do you really want to send this?".

In any case, I find there is way too much focus on words instead of actions. It's the same in politics and in business. You have people who get nailed for cursing but the standard for company leadership seems to be to use nice words while at the same time stabbing people in the back. I would be more concerned if Linus physically abused people or laid off people with one day's notice "It's just business".

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#436

Post by furgooswft13 »

pseudalopex wrote: post #428
furgooswft13 wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess for what they'd consider unjust and bullshity reasons that have nothing to do with the project, yes. Publicised instances such as donglegate, opalgate, drupalgate, Brendan Eich all fit that mold. But really I'm just wondering when you say things like "they did drag us down and ruin things for everybody", who exactly are you talking about? Examples? Every group will have its pariahs but I don't see hacker cult…

In the "dongle" incident, both the men who made the jokes and the woman who tweeted about it were fired. People in the community seem to think it was badly handled all around. Someone on HN recently mentioned that the jokers found new jobs right away but the tweeter didn't. If "Opalgate" means the attempt to remove Elia Schito, it failed. If "Drupalgate" means the removal of Larry Garfield, he insisted on bringing el…

Thanks for the history lesson. Yea, all seems pretty shitty, whether any incident succeeded or failed, or someone got kicked out or just put in the basement.

Interesting that all of these seemingly sprung out of some private action becoming publicly known, rather than the person's behavior on the project/job itself (as for Drupalgate, you claim he brought his fetish into technical events, but nothing I've read about it corroborates that).

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#437

Post by conradfr »

alfredmuffin wrote: post #230
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but at my large tech company the push for empathy has demonstrably increased employee happiness That says nothing bout the efficacy of the policy in terms of getting things done though. It is true that it is usually possible to be honest without being abrasive, however it is my experience that abrasive honesty is worth a lot more than polite dishonesty when it comes to getting things done. So in that way, "at least…

Employee happiness is directly correlated with productivity.

As demonstrated in Amazon Fulfillment Centers.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#438

Post by kyberias »

scott_s wrote: post #429
kyberias wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you internalized that cursing is not necessarily abuse? Linus has basically just being angry to people and cursed.

Insulting people based on the work they produce is abuse.

Dictionary definition for abuse is: "treat with cruelty or violence, especially regularly or repeatedly."

I don't think Linus has ever treated anyone with cruelty or violence.

Saying to someone "shut up" or that their specific work item is garbage, is not abuse.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#439

Post by scott_s »

kyberias wrote: post #438
scott_s wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insulting people based on the work they produce is abuse.

Dictionary definition for abuse is: "treat with cruelty or violence, especially regularly or repeatedly." I don't think Linus has ever treated anyone with cruelty or violence. Saying to someone "shut up" or that their specific work item is garbage, is not abuse.

Linus regularly and repeatedly was cruel to people when he perceived they made mistakes. Examples of his behavior are easy to find, and widely cited in any discussion on HN about it.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#440

Post by CJefferson »

gambler wrote: post #100

>But if people at least realise that I'm not part of the disgusting underbelly of the internet that thinks it's OK to show the kind of behaviour you will find if you really have been reading up on the 'discussions' about the code of conduct, then even that will be a really good thing. And here is a perfect example of why so many people are alarmed by his CoC adoption. This. The idea that community leaders must make i…

In Linus' case, there is reason for people who don't follow Linux closely to think he is part of the "disgusting underbelly".

A few people I know, when discussing this story, know Linus mainly as the Linux kernel developer who writes long insulting e-mails to people who's posts he doesn't like. The "retroactive abortion" seems particularly famous.

I'm not saying this is fair, given the massive and positive effect of the Linux kernel, but that doesn't stop it being true (based on my tiny sample).

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