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Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#321

Post by Consultant32452 »

simias wrote: post #97
Vinnl wrote: post #64

His feelings about two of the "sides" of this argument are so recognisable. I'm generally in favour of going out of my way e.g. to make minorities feel more welcome to compensate for the natural tendency to make them feel less welcome. However, the nastiness of some of the people in "my camp" pushes me away from it and makes me reluctant to openly support that cause. In effect, they're really counterproductive, and t…

There will always be garbage people in "your camp", whatever that camp might be. Hell, for some people in "your camp" you'll be the nasty one. The big problem with the internet and modern social networks is that they suck at filtering the noise and getting the interesting bits. In the end if we're not careful we only hear those who shout the loudest and most provocative things. A well researched essay on gender studi…

>The big problem with the internet and modern social networks is that they suck at filtering the noise and getting the interesting bits.

I think the issue is that you are measuring value differently than the social networks. What you're calling "noise" is grouped under what they measure as "success." If a million people retweet an epic burn, that's "success" from Twitter's perspective, even if it doesn't add any value to the discourse. In fact, the more it damages discourse the better, because the feedback loop means you're more likely to retweet the next epic burn. More people are inclined to try to post epic burns so they can get those retweets/credibility.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#322

Post by ethbro »

mikeash wrote: post #276
ethbro wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Civility is the bedrock on which justice is built. That's why Gandhi, King, and Mandela effected change. And so many passionate others did not.

It’s also why Washington and Lincoln were able to effect change. Wait a minute.... In any case, you’re missing the point. The point is that if you use someone’s incivility as an excuse to behave badly, you’re not doing it right. It’s fine if you don’t like them, it’s fine if you want them do change their approach, but if they push you away from treating people well, that’s on you , not them.

I'd argue neither Washington nor Lincoln initiated hostilities. So yes, both took a non-violent path until it could not be avoided.

Furthermore, both had substantial popular support, larger political apparatus backing them (the Continental Congress and remaining US Congress respectively), and almost lost.

I could care less about me. I care about the masses out there who are swayed by civility -- if you show me a pattern of disagreements that have been won by a minority alienating a majority, then I'll concede the point.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#323

Post by JohnBooty » 

    > I'm still not exactly the most empathetic person. 
    > But I'm hoping I can at least 'fake it until I 
    > make it'.
This is great!

If you ask me, "faking it" is really just as good as "actually" being a more helpful or empathetic person.

What do you think "actually" being a helpful or empathetic person is like? It's basically just continually expending the effort to be helpful and empathetic.

Let's say my brother calls me up on a Saturday morning. He needs help moving some furniture. Do I really feel like doing that? Fuuuuuuuuuck no. Will I say "yes" anyway? Probably, because even though I'd rather play tennis or sleep or play video games I want to help him. So I will consciously expend the effort to go do the good thing for him.

Am I being "actually" good there or am I just "faking it"? I don't really think there's a difference. Nobody really wants to spend a day off moving furniture for free.

Same thing with reviewing a pull request. I am not known as a caustic reviewer, but that's because I spend the effort to try and make sure I'm not caustic. What is the difference between me consciously expending the effort and Linus consciously expending the effort? (I mean, y'know, besides Linus being 1000x more productive and talented than me) Is one of us more "authentic?" I would say there's no difference.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#324

Post by whiddershins »

notacoward wrote: post #169
adamrezich wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There are people who will oppose any kind of general rule restraining behavior, because that would prevent them from exercising their own more personal and arguably more subtle kind of coercion against those they don't like for whatever reason. Do you really, truly believe this is the reason why so many people are against Codes of Conduct in open-source projects? Can you point me to this mass of disillusioned bigots…

"Do you really, truly believe this is the reason why so many people are against Codes of Conduct in open-source projects?" I think there are many reasons. This is certainly not the only one, but it's one I've run into quite a bit. Keep in mind that people usually don't realize how their behavior, or their acquiescence to others' behavior, is harming or excluding others. They feel no need for a CoC to support their si…

I truly believe you are misunderstanding Linus’ email.

He is referring to overt white nationalists and racists. Like storm front types.

You seem to be referring to subconscious bias, which seems to be literally an endless accusation.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#326

Post by smoothy2 »

notacoward wrote: post #312
smoothy2 wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Listen, I take a huge exception to the way you said things. As a minority (non-white) person, I don't need you to speak for me and me to be your pet. In fact, your attitude is highly patronizing and condescending, the fact that you don't see it, is problematic. Linux Kernel was being run ok so far. Sure there were rants from Torvalds which went overboard sometimes but accept it as a quirk of the maintainer and move o…

> As a minority (non-white) person, I don't need you to speak for me and me to be your pet. Nor was I making you one. There's nothing patronizing about pointing out how language can affect different people differently. Surely you're aware that others do need and appreciate people who will use whatever advantages they have to help raise awareness of these issues. Please don't use your own personal good fortune to prom…

I'm not sure you realize but this exact tone of discourse comes across as patronizing. Please stop playing messiah for minorities.

Also, I'm not some super rich privileged person. As a matter of fact, I'm unemployed right now but privilege or no privilege, there's no reason to cripple good open source software which is already one of the most equalizing resources that has been produced by mankind.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#327

Post by jnurmine »

GW150914 wrote: post #223
08-15 wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In practice it works like this: "Your code invokes undefined behavior and may fail in the following ways. These corner cases are handled incorrectly. There are a few other cases I'm not sure about, because I have trouble following the logic." "The code is fine. I have tested it!" "It happens to work on you current machine. That's the nature of undefined behavior. It might fail in the future without warning." "I teste…

It would cost you nothing to replace your last line with, “I’m sorry, but that’s not what we’re seeing and we won’t merge it until you fix it. I understand your passion, but I won’t sacrifice the quality of this project for that. Fix the code so that it no longer invokes undefined behavior and we’ll review it, otherwise we have nothing more to talk about.” The end. No need to call it crap, no need to burn a bridge.

But... what you wrote means exactly the same thing, with way more words.

The code was obviously bad enough to not get accepted and should be fixed. What is so bad in saying it like it is instead of dressing things up with layers of words?

Even with that long reply everyone will understand the intent behind it.

Maybe it is a cultural thing in the end. North American culture is very different from, say, Finnish culture (from which I am from, too).

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#328

Post by torstenvl »

alfredmuffin wrote: post #109
spaniard89277 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there more Europeans here in HN? Because this hard push for empathy and stuff it just feels... weird to me. Empathy as the ability to see through your own biases and understand others POV is good in every setting. Empathy as a way to not communicate directly is just a waste of time. Most malicious people I've encountered in my career are the types that comes with smiles, corporate language and all that stuff.

> Empathy as a way to not communicate directly is just a waste of time It is this attitude that drives people, and especially women and minorities, away from tech.

As a minority, let me assure you that I'd much rather be treated equally than to be subject to your soft bigotry and low expectations. Don't handle me; it's insulting.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#329

Post by forgottenpass »

Vinnl wrote: post #222
simias wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There will always be garbage people in "your camp", whatever that camp might be. Hell, for some people in "your camp" you'll be the nasty one. The big problem with the internet and modern social networks is that they suck at filtering the noise and getting the interesting bits. In the end if we're not careful we only hear those who shout the loudest and most provocative things. A well researched essay on gender studi…

I wish there was a way to get more of those ideas to me, and people in general, and less of the "I drink white male tears".

We used to recognize "flamewars" and "flamebait" a lot more readily online and encourage people to not get sucked in. To separate their opinions from a shouting match that is destined to go nowhere, even when they have a stake in the topic.

Now... we don't. And I fully cast the blame at the feet of those who have found a way to profit from starting and participating in shouting matches online. This includes 95+% of journo-bloggers.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#330

Post by eropple »

dleslie wrote: post #313
eropple wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are highlighting the false dichotomy that a lot of folks in this thread--and, if I'm being frank, not for good, decent, or ethical reasons--are piling in on. You can do something that makes people upset without being an asshole. It's really that simple. "No, I won't merge this pull request because of X, Y, and Z." Somebody's probably not going to be happy. But you have not needed to stoop to insulting them. You h…

I don't believe it's that simple. Many people have some emotional stake in the acceptance and quality of their efforts; telling them that the code they wrote won't be accepted because X, Y, and Z will almost certainly rub many the wrong way. And what of questions about their process? I've seen LKML questions along the lines of, "This code produces many warnings when compiled; did you even compile it?" It's a valid qu…

Asking if somebody compiled the code is kind of shitty, yeah. Assume good faith. But even that is nowhere near the kind of direct and point-to-point insults that some folks, particularly Linus, have gone to on occasion.

I think that you are arguing apples and apple pies.

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