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Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#291

Post by sonnyblarney »

ravenstine wrote: post #282
matthewmacleod wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s essentially a cliché false dichotomy. Wouldn’t it be even nicer to work with someone who can express how they feel in a constructive and helpful manner?

Not always. Some of the best feedback I've ever gotten was when I was told that what I wrote was "crap". What's not constructive about that feedback? When people use the word "constructive", what they actually mean is "nice" and "won't hurt my ego."

"Not always. Some of the best feedback I've ever gotten was when I was told that what I wrote was "crap". What's not constructive about that feedback?"

reply "

No.

Saying something is 'crap' may be true, but it's definitely not constructive. 'Constructive' feedback helps you understand why it's wrong. So, 'constructive' would be: "hey that code was very problematic, and here are the reasons why: etc. etc. etc.."

"When people use the word "constructive", what they actually mean is "nice" and "won't hurt my ego.""

No. Saying something is 'crap' is generally not useful and counterproductive. It's also subjective. You can say 'It doesn't work' or 'it doesn't meet requirements' and that's more objective.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#292

Post by panzagl »

matz1 wrote: post #130

I don't understand, what forced him to have to change his behavior? As far as i know he has the highest authority of linux kernel. To me he his kind of guy who can say fuck you, my way or highway. Which i admire that.

Because he knows it's only a matter of time until someone grabs an email of his from 1998 and uses it as the centerpiece of a twitter shitstorm.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#293

Post by Millennium »

furgooswft13 wrote: post #242
Millennium wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is indeed a deep betrayal of a hacker ethos: in particular, Geek Social Fallacy #1 (Ostracizers Are Evil). And you know what? That's probably a good thing. The radical inclusivity (i.e. exclude no one, for any reason) of the geek community led to some beautiful things. We took in the people nobody wanted around, and with their help, we built something special. But in our reluctance to exclude anyone, we forgot som…

Who, or what exactly are you talking about?

People are afraid of being cast out of the community because of the CoC, are they not?

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#294

Post by temporary4499 »

nalllar wrote: post #51
steve_taylor wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do have concerns about the CoC being used for political purposes That's the CoC's entire purpose. Its author (the same person behind the post-meritocracy manifesto) has said that yes, the CoC is a political document.

Being political isn't a problem. Free Software is political. mjg59 put this far better than I could: > A reminder that free software is fundamentally about breaking down barriers preventing people from participating in a social endeavour that grants them more control over their computers, and anyone who argues against that process is not helping the cause of free software > Some of those barriers are technical (DRM,…

> Being political isn't a problem. Free Software is political.

Free software isn't concerned about petty identity politics US style. That's very much what the contributor covenant, the document adopted by Linux is.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#295

Post by UncleMeat »

rooam-dev wrote: post #31
matthewmacleod wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s essentially a cliché false dichotomy. Wouldn’t it be even nicer to work with someone who can express how they feel in a constructive and helpful manner?

Sometimes "constructive" requires more effort, which for an engineer could mean "overhead". Especially if communication is text based (email, chat, etc.), it's more difficult to express your emotions. My imho of course.

It isn't overhead. It helps contributors improve.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#296

Post by iliketosleep »

bluntfang wrote: post #286
iliketosleep wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, is this an example of what they call "virtue signaling"?

It's not virtue signaling because there's actually action behind the words. If there was just a statement without change or action, it would be virtue signaling.

Thank you. I get it now. It's one of those terms I'd heard often but never completely understood.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#297

Post by Fellshard »

PeanutNore wrote: post #219
Vinnl wrote: post #64

His feelings about two of the "sides" of this argument are so recognisable. I'm generally in favour of going out of my way e.g. to make minorities feel more welcome to compensate for the natural tendency to make them feel less welcome. However, the nastiness of some of the people in "my camp" pushes me away from it and makes me reluctant to openly support that cause. In effect, they're really counterproductive, and t…

I was thinking about this sort of thing the other day, and the word "fanatic" really stuck in my mind. I especially like this word for its religious connotations, because for some of these people their politics, and more specifically extremism in their own politics, has become a sort of secular religion for them. I certainly have my own political leanings and find more agreement with those on "my side", but I would m…

It makes perfect sense. With no higher supernatural authority, the clearest higher authority for a person is one's government. Religion doesn't disappear, it just changes its targets.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#298

Post by ethbro »

bluntfang wrote: post #268
ethbro wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Civility is the bedrock on which justice is built. That's why Gandhi, King, and Mandela effected change. And so many passionate others did not.

I'm curious about your thoughts of Malcom X and his effect on the civil rights movement.

If you're talking about pre-Mecca Malcolm X (and specifically a more confrontational stance), then I personally believe the Nation of Islam and the Black Panther Party were helpful in the eventual furthering of the civil rights agenda.

By demonstrating a forceful and armed alternative to peaceful protest, they (to use the parlance of our day) pushed the Overton window in such a way that the SCLC and NAACP Legal Defense Fund seemed more mainstream.

But their effectiveness in the broader effort and end result was absolutely predicated on the existence of a more moderate and palatable (to those on the sidelines) alternative.

If we're talking about post-Mecca Malcolm X, then I think it's an excellent example of someone who has found that love triumphs over hate, both in the world and in ones own character, even when fighting terrible injustice.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#299

Post by [deleted] »

mcguire wrote: post #280
davidkuhta wrote: post #41

Anyone else get a chuckle that out of the myriad of relevant quotes, the author selected, "He... once [described] an Intel fix as 'complete and utter garbage'". Good for Linus, I'm happy that he's not looking to adjust his technical expectations: "technically wrong is still technically wrong, and I won't start accepting bad code just to make people feel better about themselves."

They could have taken a quote from 2012: " "...should be retroactively aborted. Who the f+ck does idiotic things like that? How did they not die as babies, considering that they were likely too stupid to find a tit to suck on?" "

[deleted]

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#300

Post by nabla9 »

Vinnl wrote: post #64

His feelings about two of the "sides" of this argument are so recognisable. I'm generally in favour of going out of my way e.g. to make minorities feel more welcome to compensate for the natural tendency to make them feel less welcome. However, the nastiness of some of the people in "my camp" pushes me away from it and makes me reluctant to openly support that cause. In effect, they're really counterproductive, and t…

Sufficiently advanced political correctness is indistinguishable from irony.

There is right and wrong way to be inclusive and PC.

You have to minimize the number of principles that everyone must share to be maximally inclusive and then stick to them. Typically the mandatory shared principles include fairness, neutrality in certain issues, and tolerance.

Tolerance means tolerance, not acceptance. The community where people can tolerate each other is much larger than the the community where people like each other and share common ground. Inclusiveness works best when you use relatively neutral language and avoid any discussion that is not related to the forum's purpose or concrete matters that arise.

The wrong way to do it is to think that once you require tolerance and PC language, it allows more free discussion.

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