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Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#281

Post by inawarminister »

notacoward wrote: post #217
inawarminister wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

see, the problem is that the same thing can be said vis-a-vis the COC toting social justice warriors, making things nasty to everyone just to bring their pet political issues. Indeed, things such as The End of Meritocracy manifesto... Seems to beg the thought: is the trolls in the underbelly always this nefarious that it needs this amount of unhealthiness, or are they, at the end of the day, swelled by reaction to th…

"the problem is that the same thing can be said vis-a-vis the COC toting social justice warriors" I'm no friend to some of the people pushing this. Just a couple of days ago, I was in a Twitter argument with some of them as they tried to turn this into part of their "kill Linux Foundation" feud. They definitely do have their own faults, but I still think there's a difference. They're willing to put in place a set of…

>The anti-CoC crowd accept no explicit limitation

Ah, no, the anti-CoC crowd wants the status quo antebellum, which DOES have explicit limitations; for example: GPL-2.0, and of course whether your contribution is accepted or not by the main kernel dev team. Of course, all these limitations are of CODE, not behaviours, but is it important for an open source project (theoretically) open to all members of humanity to contribute, no matter how evil or repugnant their personal views are, to regulate this? Does the fact that ReiserFS was developed by a murderer mean that we need to explicitly delete all his contributions to the kernel?

[0] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2006/10/7956/ >Wikipedia: ReiserFS is currently supported on Linux (without quota support) licensed as GPLv2. Introduced in version 2.4.1 of the Linux kernel, it was the first journaling file system to be included in the standard kernel

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#282

Post by ravenstine »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #21
stemc43 wrote: post #10

If not for this guy - we wouldn't have Linux. I'd much rather work with honest person that can tell me how he really feels then nice spoken liars.

That’s essentially a cliché false dichotomy. Wouldn’t it be even nicer to work with someone who can express how they feel in a constructive and helpful manner?

Not always. Some of the best feedback I've ever gotten was when I was told that what I wrote was "crap". What's not constructive about that feedback?

When people use the word "constructive", what they actually mean is "nice" and "won't hurt my ego."

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#283

Post by gowld »

ethbro wrote: post #213
mikeash wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish people would stop being so concerned about what other people think. If treating people well is the right thing to do, then do it. If people are nasty when they try to make you treat people well, ignore them. When people say that they wanted to do the right thing but got pushed away because the advocates were jerks, that just sounds like an excuse. That’s not to say that it’s ok to be a jerk just because you’re…

Civility is the bedrock on which justice is built. That's why Gandhi, King, and Mandela effected change. And so many passionate others did not.

That's extremely selective memory. Mandela was a member of a terrorist organization. Apartheid didn't end because Mandela sat in prison politely.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necklacing

King railed against people who spoke like you to quiet the people fighting for justice: https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham....

"I am further convinced that if our white brothers dismiss as "rabble rousers" and "outside agitators" those of us who employ nonviolent direct action, and if they refuse to support our nonviolent efforts, millions of Negroes will, out of frustration and despair, seek solace and security in black nationalist ideologies--a development that would inevitably lead to a frightening racial nightmare."

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#284

Post by alfredmuffin »

maxk42 wrote: post #211
alfredmuffin wrote: post #49

I question the professional experience of those suggesting that continuing to be an asshole is the preferable situation here ("but at least he's HONEST "). That would simply not fly at my company. It is absolutely possible to be kind when giving honest and constructive feedback and criticism. Empathy is a skill this industry needs to develop.

This isn't a company. It's an all-volunteer force. And educating people with four-letter words is a highly effective way to get people to fall in line with your culture, rather than allowing them to go around half-cocked all the time. A well-placed "fuck you" keeps people humble. Spare the rod and all that. 20 years experience, C-level, and my direct reports love me.

The toxicity is seeping.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#285

Post by scrollaway »

adamrezich wrote: post #116
notacoward wrote: post #104

IMO the most interesting part - especially relative to the discussions I've seen right here - is near the end. "But if people at least realise that I'm not part of the disgusting underbelly of the internet that thinks it's OK to show the kind of behaviour you will find if you really have been reading up on the 'discussions' about the code of conduct, then even that will be a really good thing." Yes indeed, if you loo…

>There are people who will oppose any kind of general rule restraining behavior, because that would prevent them from exercising their own more personal and arguably more subtle kind of coercion against those they don't like for whatever reason. Do you really, truly believe this is the reason why so many people are against Codes of Conduct in open-source projects? Can you point me to this mass of disillusioned bigots…

I've generally been against CoC in less-than-huge projects for practical reasons (as a founder and leader of several communities, both in FOSS and outside of software, I have my informed opinion on what works to maintain good community health).

I can attest that the people GP refers to exist, but it's more complicated than that. Codes of Conduct are established sometimes without a problem actually existing in the community in question, which raises the implication that the community hasn't been welcoming thus far (and often enough, that's wrong). They're also often seen as a way to legitimize a "we can silence you for any reason we choose" behaviour that is far too frequent in community moderators.

This is all very context-dependant. Point is there are legitimate concerns over codes of conduct. Unfortunately, those concerns disproportionally affect the category of nasty people mentioned in GP, and that category gets way more defensive and, since this is the internet, tends to jump into these issues even when they're not part of the community in question and hijacking the topic.

... and since this is the internet, this also happens on the pro-CoC side. Which basically results in 95% outside noise on both sides of any sensitive topic that happens to catch public wind.

It's super easy to point to nasty people on both sides of the issue. It's also very easy to get radicalized by seeing how nasty the "other side" is and becoming part of the problem. And those getting caught in that filter tend not to, as you say, "understand where the other side is coming from".

----

Edit: Downvotes are very telling of the behaviour I describe, btw. This post has gone between -3 and +3 and back without a single reply. It's not about discussion, it's just about whether people think I'm part of their "camp".

No room for mixed arguments.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#286

Post by bluntfang »

iliketosleep wrote: post #262
gambler wrote: post #100

>But if people at least realise that I'm not part of the disgusting underbelly of the internet that thinks it's OK to show the kind of behaviour you will find if you really have been reading up on the 'discussions' about the code of conduct, then even that will be a really good thing. And here is a perfect example of why so many people are alarmed by his CoC adoption. This. The idea that community leaders must make i…

Actually, is this an example of what they call "virtue signaling"?

It's not virtue signaling because there's actually action behind the words. If there was just a statement without change or action, it would be virtue signaling.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#287

Post by jlawson »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #215
l8again wrote: post #46

Here we go normalizing verbal abuses to just "not being polite enough". This culture is now so pervasive in our industry that people are wearing their rudeness to their fellow coworkers as a badge of honor. I have seen incredibly meek guys on the outside turn into monsters as soon as they get into their roles of lead devs or tech leads. Repeat after me - "Kindness is cool."

There's a huge difference between being 'very frank' and being a true douche. Both can be perceived as jerkoff but I think only the later really counts as that. As far as 'meek guys' turning to jerks with a taste of power - it's very common for all types. Without going into my background I had a chance to witness 100's of young people come into, and go out of power. Almost everyone 'over identifies' with their power…

I'd love to read more about what you've seen with power rotation, with any specifics or stories you could give. It's not something I've heard before.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#288

Post by eropple »

matz1 wrote: post #260
eeZah7Ux wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's unlikely that someone can be impervious to all and every type of insult and at any point in your life, as long as you are human. In some cultures e.g. Japanese, being publicly accused and insulted is worse than insulting - it's a mark of shame that doesn't go away. Unfortunately people simply can't rewire their brain, especially as adults, and that's why good manners exist.

> It's unlikely that someone can be impervious to all and every type of insult and at any point in your life, as long as you are human Sure, but I can always make the effort and try >Unfortunately people simply can't rewire their brain, especially as adults I think It works both way. Some asshole can't simply be not asshole.

Everyone, modulo the pathologically mentally ill who require at least some level of direct and personal care (and who, frankly, are such a vanishingly tiny minority that optimizing for that case is silly), can choose to not be an asshole.

Someone's ingrained bad habits may make this harder.

Tough.

It's a choice; make it.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#289

Post by beaconstudios »

pjc50 wrote: post #274
beaconstudios wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

personally, I think the majority of people have acted like this (or perhaps more "live and let live") by default for a long time. However, basic morality is not the only operator of people's behaviour, and other operators can override morality such as economic exploitation, group conflict, education, stereotypical perception of other groups, and so on. Basically, it's a really complicated series of systemic issues th…

> the majority of people have acted like this (or perhaps more "live and let live") by default for a long time The majority of people where at what times? Does it actually matter why people hate, only that they do? Your argument seems to be that all racism etc is systemic and structural, and therefore there's no individual responsibility?

> The majority of people where at what times?

Do you expect me to be an expert on the moral history of every group on earth? I'm not going to specify in exact detail, but my point is that I think people naturally default to ambivalence and have to learn (or be taught) to mistreat specific groups of people.

> Does it actually matter why people hate, only that they do?

Yes, it matters if you want to do anything about it.

> Your argument seems to be that all racism etc is systemic and structural, and therefore there's no individual responsibility?

Yep, pretty much. Or at least, most racism. Individuals are responsible for forming the opinions but to make any real difference you need to take away the reason they formed the opinion.

If you want to reduce oppression at scale, you need to address the systemic issue. Do you think a racist hates some set of people arbitrarily? Or do you think he might have a (obviously invalid) reason to hate them, such as feeling they are a threat, are inferior, can be exploited, are ridiculous and so on? Dig down into those reasons and I believe you will find a systemic root most of the time. Obviously that person shouldn't hold those views, but how are you going to address the problem? Attempt to force everyone with a bad opinion to change that opinion? Or do you address the reason they acquired the perception in the first place, meaning that the next generation has less reason to discriminate? I think the latter is more viable.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#290

Post by matz1 »

BeetleB wrote: post #255
matz1 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sure but I can't realistically expect everyone to be nice, Isn't better for me to always try to prepare myself for the fact that anyone can be rude and unhelpful ?

Yes, but it is also unreasonable to expect everyone you professionally deal with to be that way. To be frank, it's unreasonable to even expect this at the team level. It's also completely orthogonal to whether it's OK for the team leader to be an asshole.

I am not sure what you mean, yes it is unreasonable to expect everyone I professionally deal with to be that one way.
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