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Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

bbc.co.uk

261–270 of 483 posts

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#261
post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must be insufferable to be around. Here's a novel idea, how about instead of directly resorting to "Your code sucks." we instead say something like "I think there's still some work to do here. Here's the way I would have done this." It's really not that hard to give constructive criticism.

In practice it works like this: "Your code invokes undefined behavior and may fail in the following ways. These corner cases are handled incorrectly. There are a few other cases I'm not sure about, because I have trouble following the logic." "The code is fine. I have tested it!" "It happens to work on you current machine. That's the nature of undefined behavior. It might fail in the future without warning." "I teste…

>"The code is fine. I have tested it!"

In your scenario, the person saying this is being the bad contributor, and should be told to explain what they disagree with in the review. If anyone shuts down in a code review like that more than once, they should be finding a new place to work. And that really goes for both sides to be fair -- if I put in effort into a PR I deserve a good constructive review. If it's a public project and this stranger refuses to follow the rules, no harm done in closing the request and telling them to come back later when they're ready to discuss things.

Or you know, however you discipline them. I think we're in agreement that there's no need to resort to personal attacks and frankly someone telling me my code is crap is probably better than being told I should have been aborted in a code review.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#262

>But if people at least realise that I'm not part of the disgusting underbelly of the internet that thinks it's OK to show the kind of behaviour you will find if you really have been reading up on the 'discussions' about the code of conduct, then even that will be a really good thing. And here is a perfect example of why so many people are alarmed by his CoC adoption. This. The idea that community leaders must make i…

Actually, is this an example of what they call "virtue signaling"?

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#263

I don't need my computer tools to define my political/spiritual beliefs. In fact, I think Torvalds adopting something like this in relation to Linux is a deep betrayal of a hacker ethos. I will be keeping my eyes peeled for alternatives that understand the division between spiritual beliefs and "forced agreement with an assertion by participation" that uses religious terminology that has quite a different meaning to…

It is indeed a deep betrayal of a hacker ethos: in particular, Geek Social Fallacy #1 (Ostracizers Are Evil). And you know what? That's probably a good thing. The radical inclusivity (i.e. exclude no one, for any reason) of the geek community led to some beautiful things. We took in the people nobody wanted around, and with their help, we built something special. But in our reluctance to exclude anyone, we forgot som…

You are completely missing the point. It's not about rejecting or accepting people. It's about rejecting or accepting patches.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but at my large tech company the push for empathy has demonstrably increased employee happiness That says nothing bout the efficacy of the policy in terms of getting things done though. It is true that it is usually possible to be honest without being abrasive, however it is my experience that abrasive honesty is worth a lot more than polite dishonesty when it comes to getting things done. So in that way, "at least…

Employee happiness is directly correlated with productivity.

That may be, but there's a reason companies use metrics other than employee happiness to see how they're doing.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#265
post #10

If not for this guy - we wouldn't have Linux. I'd much rather work with honest person that can tell me how he really feels then nice spoken liars.

That’s essentially a cliché false dichotomy. Wouldn’t it be even nicer to work with someone who can express how they feel in a constructive and helpful manner?

Oh, sure. It'd also be very nice to work in a 50% female developer team where everyone estimates correctly.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#266
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. But in reality as a leader you sometimes have to be willing to piss off some people. You can't always be nice. Sometimes you have to draw a clear boundary.

Wow, you respond to a comment about false dichotomy by invoking the false dichotomy.

Correct. My point is that you can't always be nice. It works as little as always being abrasive.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#267

I question the professional experience of those suggesting that continuing to be an asshole is the preferable situation here ("but at least he's HONEST "). That would simply not fly at my company. It is absolutely possible to be kind when giving honest and constructive feedback and criticism. Empathy is a skill this industry needs to develop.

Are there more Europeans here in HN? Because this hard push for empathy and stuff it just feels... weird to me. Empathy as the ability to see through your own biases and understand others POV is good in every setting. Empathy as a way to not communicate directly is just a waste of time. Most malicious people I've encountered in my career are the types that comes with smiles, corporate language and all that stuff.

>Empathy as a way to not communicate directly is just a waste of time.

False dichotomy.

>Most malicious people I've encountered in my career are the types that comes with smiles, corporate language and all that stuff.

Also a false dichotomy.

Most effective people I've encountered in my career are direct and empathetic.

I'll merely link to the comment I wrote the last time this was discussed:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18002940

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#268
post #213
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish people would stop being so concerned about what other people think. If treating people well is the right thing to do, then do it. If people are nasty when they try to make you treat people well, ignore them. When people say that they wanted to do the right thing but got pushed away because the advocates were jerks, that just sounds like an excuse. That’s not to say that it’s ok to be a jerk just because you’re…

Civility is the bedrock on which justice is built. That's why Gandhi, King, and Mandela effected change. And so many passionate others did not.

I'm curious about your thoughts of Malcom X and his effect on the civil rights movement.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#269
post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's not. It is better to respond coolly to assholish behavior. But it is not better to allow it to remain unchallenged. Not challenging assholish behavior means that it becomes a community norm and is then incumbent upon everybody else to "train" themselves, as you say, to ignore the behavior of a minority of assholes. It hands the responsibility of defining what the culture is to those assholes. Letting the ass…

Isn't is easier to change one person namely myself, rather than try to change one other person, let alone many? The culture and the world always evolving and changing, it can be worse or better or whatever, most importantly for me is how can I make myself adapt to the every situation and make the best of it.

I don't care about "easier" and I don't think you should either. Why would "easier" be even on the radar?

"Changing yourself" and letting rot fester is of little value to anyone. Be so mildly discomforted as to push back on other people's nasty behaviors and you make the world a better place.

Do what is right.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#270
post #211

I question the professional experience of those suggesting that continuing to be an asshole is the preferable situation here ("but at least he's HONEST "). That would simply not fly at my company. It is absolutely possible to be kind when giving honest and constructive feedback and criticism. Empathy is a skill this industry needs to develop.

This isn't a company. It's an all-volunteer force. And educating people with four-letter words is a highly effective way to get people to fall in line with your culture, rather than allowing them to go around half-cocked all the time. A well-placed "fuck you" keeps people humble. Spare the rod and all that. 20 years experience, C-level, and my direct reports love me.

>A well-placed "fuck you" keeps people humble. Spare the rod and all that.

>20 years experience, C-level, and my direct reports love me.

I was once part of a volunteer group that had a lot of nastiness. I learned one thing from it. The way to get a group that is very harmonious and on the same page is to ensure the leader is a big enough jerk that whoever disagrees eventually leaves. Those who remain are of the same mindset as the leader.

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