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Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#111

Post by edent »

nailer wrote: post #48
zellyn wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course a Code of Conduct is a political document.

That's worrying, it shouldn't be. - Ethics are things the overwhelming majority of humans agree on. - Politics are not. Edit for 'edent' below due to rate limit: Were you replying to someone else? My comment mentioned the majority of people agree on ethics. Racial, gender, sexual preference and religious discrimination isn't considered OK in most western countries. Additionally, you're derailing the discussion by tal…

You are wrong.

There are a whole raft of people who truly believe that black/gay/trans/religious/whatever people are not worthy of treating as equals. That they shouldn't be granted the same rights as "normal" people and, in extreme cases, that they aren't really human.

A CoC says "These are the ethics of our community." It isn't Politics (which party you vote for), but it is necessarily political.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#112

Post by arayh »

alfredmuffin wrote: post #49

I question the professional experience of those suggesting that continuing to be an asshole is the preferable situation here ("but at least he's HONEST "). That would simply not fly at my company. It is absolutely possible to be kind when giving honest and constructive feedback and criticism. Empathy is a skill this industry needs to develop.

Absolutely! This reminds me of https://compassionatecoding.com/ - there's a lot to be said about this industry and the "cold" work environments that are associated to it. I support the compassionate coding movement. Software engineers should support and help each other improve as a whole. It creates a much better work culture and more effective team communication.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#113

Post by yourbandsucks »

mikeash wrote: post #89
Vinnl wrote: post #64

His feelings about two of the "sides" of this argument are so recognisable. I'm generally in favour of going out of my way e.g. to make minorities feel more welcome to compensate for the natural tendency to make them feel less welcome. However, the nastiness of some of the people in "my camp" pushes me away from it and makes me reluctant to openly support that cause. In effect, they're really counterproductive, and t…

I wish people would stop being so concerned about what other people think. If treating people well is the right thing to do, then do it. If people are nasty when they try to make you treat people well, ignore them. When people say that they wanted to do the right thing but got pushed away because the advocates were jerks, that just sounds like an excuse. That’s not to say that it’s ok to be a jerk just because you’re…

The thing is, on most political or religious topics, people leave that stuff at home and don't bring it to work.

The SJW people are bringing it to work and right into everybody's face.

I'm not saying "guess what, then, I'm the opposite, let's go be racist". I'm saying "could you please get that out of my face".

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#114

Post by dagw »

rectang wrote: post #4

It's interesting that Torvalds describes himself as "not a people person", when he's a gifted communicator who has been tremendously successful at managing the community around Linux over many years. His current refinements are making a great thing even better.

I get where he's coming from. I have no problem speaking in front of people or participating and leading groups when it comes to technical/professional/job related things, but dealing with groups and people in a more ambiguous social contexts just makes me want to run and hide in a corner.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#115

Post by krapp »

yosefzeev wrote: post #99
krapp wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't need my computer tools to define my political/spiritual beliefs. In fact, I think Torvalds adopting something like this in relation to Linux is a deep betrayal of a hacker ethos. A "hacker ethos" is a political belief.

It is but you don't need an OS to define it.

But it seems as if the politics being discussed here apply to the project and its contributors, it's not as if a Code of Conduct is being applied to you, the end user. Unless they add something political to the license itself, I don't see why it would matter.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#116

Post by adamrezich »

notacoward wrote: post #104

IMO the most interesting part - especially relative to the discussions I've seen right here - is near the end. "But if people at least realise that I'm not part of the disgusting underbelly of the internet that thinks it's OK to show the kind of behaviour you will find if you really have been reading up on the 'discussions' about the code of conduct, then even that will be a really good thing." Yes indeed, if you loo…

>There are people who will oppose any kind of general rule restraining behavior, because that would prevent them from exercising their own more personal and arguably more subtle kind of coercion against those they don't like for whatever reason.

Do you really, truly believe this is the reason why so many people are against Codes of Conduct in open-source projects? Can you point me to this mass of disillusioned bigots, expressing frustration at their inability to continue to act bigoted while within proximity to open-source?

Either you've been going to wildly different parts of the Internet than I have recently, or your understanding of the side of the argument opposite you is based on a practically-nonexistent strawman, which is causing you to be completely unable to understand where "the other side" is actually coming from.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#117

Post by fireflash38 »

spaniard89277 wrote: post #71
alfredmuffin wrote: post #49

I question the professional experience of those suggesting that continuing to be an asshole is the preferable situation here ("but at least he's HONEST "). That would simply not fly at my company. It is absolutely possible to be kind when giving honest and constructive feedback and criticism. Empathy is a skill this industry needs to develop.

Are there more Europeans here in HN? Because this hard push for empathy and stuff it just feels... weird to me. Empathy as the ability to see through your own biases and understand others POV is good in every setting. Empathy as a way to not communicate directly is just a waste of time. Most malicious people I've encountered in my career are the types that comes with smiles, corporate language and all that stuff.

'Empathy' in most of these cases mean: don't act like a vitriolic douche.

Don't insult or belittle the person. Learn to critique without being an asshole about it.

On the other hand: take criticism of your work without taking it personally. That's arguably a lot harder than the former, but it's gotta be done. It helps a lot when the person isn't being an asshole about the criticism though :)

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#118

Post by Something1234 »

chooseaname wrote: post #95
cirgue wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you don't love me at my worst, you can't have me at my best" is a load of nonsense in any context, and doubly so in politics.

> "If you don't love me at my worst, you can't have me at my best" Said every wife beater who ever lived.

Really, I've always seen that quote associated with "basic bitches," who demand the world, but give nothing in return.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#119

Post by beaconstudios »

yourbandsucks wrote: post #113
mikeash wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish people would stop being so concerned about what other people think. If treating people well is the right thing to do, then do it. If people are nasty when they try to make you treat people well, ignore them. When people say that they wanted to do the right thing but got pushed away because the advocates were jerks, that just sounds like an excuse. That’s not to say that it’s ok to be a jerk just because you’re…

The thing is, on most political or religious topics, people leave that stuff at home and don't bring it to work. The SJW people are bringing it to work and right into everybody's face. I'm not saying "guess what, then, I'm the opposite, let's go be racist". I'm saying "could you please get that out of my face".

> I'm not turning around and saying "guess what, then, I'm the opposite, let's go be racist".

incidentally, the people who did decide to do this became the alt-right.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#120

Post by notyourday »

eropple wrote: post #101
notyourday wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you ever fire people who are nice and really trying?

The low emotional intelligence on display throughout this thread is both disappointing and unsurprising. I have fired "nice and really trying" people. Because they were decent people, I have also then recommended them to my personal network for positions that are better suited to their skills (and more than once have they gone on to success at a friend's company), because hiring somebody who can't do the job is manag…

Thank you for providing a glimpse into a mind bending gymnastics one might need to engage in to convince himself or herself that it is different somehow: this is actually why work references are absolutely useless - people love to coddle incompetence in order to be perceived as "nice bosses".

If someone's being unable to do a job is management's fault ( in this case yours, since you are the manager of the person that you have fired ), then the person who needs to be fired should be the manager, not the person who cannot do the job.

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