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How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

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Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#181

Post by Fjolsvith »

coliveira wrote: post #22
reaperducer wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US pried the textile and locomotives industries from the UK This is the sort of argument that an eight-year-old makes to his mother, and the mother responds, "If Jimmy jumped off a bridge, would you?" I don't know if you're an American or not, but there's an very common expression: Two wrongs don't make a right.

Except that this is not jumping from a bridge, it is the tried and tested way to develop a nation's industry. Moreover, it is very funny hearing this coming from Americans who are in one side accepting that this is wrong and then in the same breath denouncing it being done to themselves!

Actually, the funny part is the Chinese crying about unfairness.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#182

Post by Fjolsvith »

rayiner wrote: post #27
diego_moita wrote: post #9

And so what??? The US pried the textile and locomotives industries from the UK, check the history of Samuel Slater[1]. Same happened for Japan under Meiji restoration. India and Brazil do the same for pharmaceutical patents, because they're too poor to afford paying them. Stealing IP will happen, no matter what treaties and governments try to do. For poor countries it is a path they just don't have the luxury of givi…

The fact that we did it to the UK doesn't mean it's good for us to let China do it too. I mean, we exterminated the native Americans and stole their land--if someone tried to do that to us, should we sit back and do nothing? "Oh well, cosmic balance and whatnot!"

Frankly, the UK screwed up by not getting into a trade war to protect their IP. They had their chance and blew it.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#183

Post by Fjolsvith »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #78
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can place a bit more blame on the US companies that let it happen. This is one aspect of Chinese culture that I’ll never understand. For example, if you get cheated, it’s your fault for being lax/trusting/stupid enough to get cheated. The immorality is on the victim, which makes for some extremely paranoid business relationships when working in China. How is that beneficial in the long term? Why doesn’t such a…

> The immorality is on the victim, Does Chinese culture actually shift moral blame onto the victim? If not, then this sounds a bit like the "victim blaming" obsession of modern American culture, which misses the crucial point - there are two types of blame to be passed around here. The offender was evil - they cheated. The victim was stupid - they were aware of the danger and ignored it.

I've never heard of a "victim blaming" obsession of modern American culture, despite having grown up in it. Could you point me to some articles that elaborate?

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#184

Post by Fjolsvith »

alehul wrote: post #100
TeMPOraL wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In fact, the only argument I remember hearing (I think it was Marc Andreessen?) against the shaming of the scammer in the prince analogy is that they sometimes have no other option to feed their family. I doubt that justification applies to Chinese IP theft. I do not necessarily agree with this argument, but it actually translates to China's situation pretty directly - you could argue that their attitude to IP is a…

Fair point! From an ethical perspective I would still choose to shame it, but that equivalence can definitely be justified; it's no different than the Nigerian scammer but on a country-wide level. I like it. Another question would be whether the Chinese acquiring this IP would trickle down to help those in poverty, or whether the wealth would stay consolidated at the top.

It certainly has to help someone in a re-education camp somewhere in China.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#185

Post by Fjolsvith »

optimiz3 wrote: post #122
natvert wrote: post #49

It's hard for me to believe that all the smart, capable company executives involved in planning and execution of operations in and around China are oblivious to IP risks. There is an obvious upside of operating in Asia, both cheap labor (though now decreasing) and strong work ethic coupled with access to a huge market. It seems to me that execs understand and take a calculated risk when they choose to do business in…

Perhaps we should consider revoking patent and other IP protections for companies that knowingly or negligently allow IP to be transferred to jurisdictions that do not respect IP rights in pursuit of profit. Otherwise it's a double whammy, your foreign competitors compete unbound while your domestic market competition is restricted. It would also align the game theory to prevent companies from "selling out" to such j…

Big pharma would lobby hard against that kind of law change.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#186

Post by Fjolsvith »

kome wrote: post #25
YorkshireSeason wrote: post #11

There's a gentlemen's agreement between nations that this is permissible for poor nations. China is no longer poor and now must act like a wealthy nation and accept IP laws.

There is no law at the international level. China can do whatever it wants. But, other countries can do whatever they want as well: they can stop trading with China. But China's labor is so cheap. Exploitation is a sweet sweet drug for the west. So, it's complicated.

Exactly. We got rid of our "re-education" employment centers long ago.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#187

Post by joelx »

diego_moita wrote: post #9

And so what??? The US pried the textile and locomotives industries from the UK, check the history of Samuel Slater[1]. Same happened for Japan under Meiji restoration. India and Brazil do the same for pharmaceutical patents, because they're too poor to afford paying them. Stealing IP will happen, no matter what treaties and governments try to do. For poor countries it is a path they just don't have the luxury of givi…

I have seen tons of comments like this lately on HN. I believe personally patents should he entirely abolished, but if we are keeping them at this point it is a major disadvantage to have it stolen by the Chinese. I am shocked people on HN are so much more offended by Facebook or Google's minor misdeeds while outright theft by nation states is ongoing. I believe lots of these comments are placed here by PR companies paid by Russia and China.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#188

Post by agumonkey »

reaperducer wrote: post #12
diego_moita wrote: post #9

And so what??? The US pried the textile and locomotives industries from the UK, check the history of Samuel Slater[1]. Same happened for Japan under Meiji restoration. India and Brazil do the same for pharmaceutical patents, because they're too poor to afford paying them. Stealing IP will happen, no matter what treaties and governments try to do. For poor countries it is a path they just don't have the luxury of givi…

The US pried the textile and locomotives industries from the UK This is the sort of argument that an eight-year-old makes to his mother, and the mother responds, "If Jimmy jumped off a bridge, would you?" I don't know if you're an American or not, but there's an very common expression: Two wrongs don't make a right.

See whataboutism

Now there's an hypocrisy to complain about a rule when you broke it prior.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#189

Post by fellellor »

api wrote: post #69
simion314 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't the companies just not do business in China if they don't like the contract? Other countries have similar laws, like it forces companies to hire local people or spend part of the money locally. If China can afford to not respect the IP laws then there is nothing what a company can do, eventually the secrets would be reversed engineered.

They do. This is part of why we have such a large trade deficit with China. The real issue here is China's double-talk on trade. They talk about open free trade but in reality they practice intense nationalistic and protectionist trade tactics. They do everything possible to prevent foreign companies from selling anything in China, while at the same time doing everything they can to attract foreign labor outsourcing,…

Have you considered maybe American companies simply aren't competitive enough compared to the local players. American products are often too expensive because the companies want high dollar profits to show their shareholders, even if the cost of production, which is often outsourced, doesn't justify the high market price.

Also, as time goes on the skills of the entire world population is being equalized. That is to say, the skilled labor market is becoming global. When that happens American workers and middle class simply can't keep enjoying the high wages that are currently prevalent.

Unless of course, you want to start a new era of imperialism and force developing economies to confine themselves to the lower end of the value chain.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#190

Post by fellellor »

joelx wrote: post #187
diego_moita wrote: post #9

And so what??? The US pried the textile and locomotives industries from the UK, check the history of Samuel Slater[1]. Same happened for Japan under Meiji restoration. India and Brazil do the same for pharmaceutical patents, because they're too poor to afford paying them. Stealing IP will happen, no matter what treaties and governments try to do. For poor countries it is a path they just don't have the luxury of givi…

I have seen tons of comments like this lately on HN. I believe personally patents should he entirely abolished, but if we are keeping them at this point it is a major disadvantage to have it stolen by the Chinese. I am shocked people on HN are so much more offended by Facebook or Google's minor misdeeds while outright theft by nation states is ongoing. I believe lots of these comments are placed here by PR companies…

That sounds like Trump speak. He also believes a lot of things without any proof.
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