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Oracle’s Java 11 trap

blog.joda.org

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Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#81

Post by StreamBright »

wheresvic1 wrote: post #16

I'm not sure Java is worth the effort at this point. If I'm going to have to keep updating every 6 months, I would rather use Go, which seems to have all that Java has to offer + the backing of a huge corporation.

Right, what is the equivalent of the following in Go?

import org.apache.hadoop.*;

import org.rapidoid.net.Server;

In case you are wondering people not only using languages for language features but also for the quality/quantity of libraries available in those languages. This is why is very hard to bootstrap a new language. Java has a ton of great libraries that are essential to big data and high performance backend services that you do not have in Go. I could mention tooling as well but we can skip it for now, the aforementioned library situation is enough to not to consider go already. Btw. the new OpenJDK releases are just fine for running Java and many companies use it extensively already (like AWS EMR for example) to run production code.

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#82

Post by fnord123 »

Leace wrote: post #49
floatboth wrote: post #9

> Download Oracle JDK (because that is what you've always done, and it is what the web-search tells you) What I've always done is install OpenJDK from the system's package manager :P

And that's good that package managers ship only openjdk. When I migrated to Linux I didn't know better but as "openjdk" was easier to install than Oracle JDK I used "openjdk". It turns out it works very well, actually I can't tell the difference.

OpenJDK is the reference implementation now so if you did find a functional difference, Oracle is in error.

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#83

Post by kitd »

wheresvic1 wrote: post #16

I'm not sure Java is worth the effort at this point. If I'm going to have to keep updating every 6 months, I would rather use Go, which seems to have all that Java has to offer + the backing of a huge corporation.

+ the backing of a huge corporation.

Poor little Oracle & IBM.

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#84

Post by baud147258 »

bradleyjg wrote: post #14
baud147258 wrote: post #7

Java 11? At work we haven't even started to look at the migration from Java 8...

As odd as it sounds given how things used to work, in the new model you are generally expected to go from 8 to 11. So you're not especially behind. That said, this transition will be rougher than most because of modules.

Yes, a collegue and I have both taken a look to the situation when version 9 was released and it's going to take some work to do the migration. But as it is I don't if we're going to 9 or directly to 11, but I think it's on the roadmap of the next version.

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#86

Post by wheresvic1 »

dudul wrote: post #29
wheresvic1 wrote: post #16

I'm not sure Java is worth the effort at this point. If I'm going to have to keep updating every 6 months, I would rather use Go, which seems to have all that Java has to offer + the backing of a huge corporation.

You seem to confuse the language Java and the JVM. Updating the JVM (which you are not forced to do) does not mean that you need to update your code base. That's actually Java's main strength (and weakness), it is compatible all the way to version 1.0

Aha, you are correct - this is only JVM related.

In theory, the changes should really be minimal but to be sure we would need to have a very strong CI and stress testing platform to be sure about upgrading.

All good projects should have this in place anyways.

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#87

Post by jodastephen »

paradite wrote: post #78

Is this actually a trap? The "trap" page has a huge warning section that clearly tells you license has substantially changed and how to get open JDK, and what license it has. > With JDK 11 Oracle has updated the license terms on which we offer the Oracle JDK. The new Oracle Technology Network License Agreement for Oracle Java SE is substantially different from the licenses under which previous versions of the JDK wer…

Not everybody reads warnings. Many will go to that page and just go straight to the download. In addition, the warning doesn't say "not for commercial use" - you have to click through and read a long legalese to find it. Oracle could still choose to make it clearer...

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#88

Post by danpalmer »

JoshuaAshton wrote: post #24

Oracle seriously needs to be fought in court about this and their other actions. They're actively hostile to the whole tech community and their entire business model is based on trapping people into paying for things by not making their licenses clear or changing their licenses. I don't know why anyone would use any software made by Oracle these days, the alternatives and open implementations of their own systems ten…

> Oracle seriously needs to be fought in court about this and their other actions.

The problem is that very few companies have the desire or resources to do this. The community certainly doesn't have the resources. We'd need tens of millions of dollars of legal resources to fight their terrible behaviour.

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#89

Post by JoshuaAshton »

paradite wrote: post #78

Is this actually a trap? The "trap" page has a huge warning section that clearly tells you license has substantially changed and how to get open JDK, and what license it has. > With JDK 11 Oracle has updated the license terms on which we offer the Oracle JDK. The new Oracle Technology Network License Agreement for Oracle Java SE is substantially different from the licenses under which previous versions of the JDK wer…

The majority of people don't download the JDK via this method (eg. a package manager) and will miss that big box about a license change.

Edit: Plus even if they aren't you still have the general mindset of "next next install close" where people are so normalized to getting something like that, to test or deploy it would be very easy to miss - given the license of the previous versions it would be an expectation that you would also be able to use the next version for commercial use also.

Although Oracle are perfectly within their rights to change the license, that doesn't mean it's not a dick move and a scummy thing to do.

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#90

Post by Gaelan »

paradite wrote: post #78

Is this actually a trap? The "trap" page has a huge warning section that clearly tells you license has substantially changed and how to get open JDK, and what license it has. > With JDK 11 Oracle has updated the license terms on which we offer the Oracle JDK. The new Oracle Technology Network License Agreement for Oracle Java SE is substantially different from the licenses under which previous versions of the JDK wer…

I think license changes are common enough that the reaction to such a thing is often "yeah, whatever." Most of the time, these sorts of things are not actually that substantial
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