Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France • Hacker News Board

Re: Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

#61

Post by poulsbohemian » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 9:31 PM UTC

Nokinside wrote: post #47

EZ-E wrote: post #8

My opinion : the low salaries of engineers, high taxes and bureaucracy hold back the startup scene. Also, the mentality toward technical positions, in France if you didn't go from engineer to manager by 35 year old people wonder what's wrong with you. https://imgur.com/a/MOlau0V

As a Nordic entrepreneur. None of the reasons sounds right reasons to me. https://econ.arizona.edu/sites/econ/files/econ-wp-10-07.pdf The real problem for startups is the lack of American style VC funding. European startups need to get profitable much earlier than US startups. Early funding for startups is OKish. You can grow from 0 to 10-50 million, but after that it's better to sell the business to some big interna…

>The real problem for startups is the lack of American style VC funding. European startups need to get profitable much earlier than US startups.

This is a common refrain, but the reality is that VC is both out of reach and not the right fit for the vast majority of US ventures. Likewise, knowing the number of firms that get VC but will collapse anyway, I often wonder if it is a benefit that in other countries there is a slower, more profit-driven path that would seem to build legitimate companies for the long run rather than vehicles that border on financial engineering in the name of short-term potential success.

Re: Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

#62

Post by jeandejean » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 9:39 PM UTC

lazyjones wrote: post #57

axtn wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. France has extremely strong engineering schools, and almost no software industry. You wouldn’t believe the talent being wasted in banking IT desks and consulting conpanies... Not only can a well-funded startup pay them better, the work is 10x more interesting. And unlike Silicon Valley engineers, French employees won’t ditch you after a year. Once they’re on board, they tend to stick around (sometimes even t…

> French employees won’t ditch you after a year. Once they’re on board, they tend to stick around (sometimes even too long for their own good...) You forgot to mention that you can‘t fire them at will either... It‘s such laws and excessive taxation that makes many european countries unattractive for startups.

That is just not true, it's quite easy to fire somebody in France, you just have to pay correctly for settlement.

Re: Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

#63

Post by mhjas » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 9:41 PM UTC

oh_sigh wrote: post #50

mhjas wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by "standard of living" though? I know plenty of Europeans who have access to things even rich Americans barely have access to. Once you want to, or have, kids many benefits that are hard to come by becomes less gimmicky. The main problem in Europe, and in most countries, these days is the housing market. Your position in the housing market has really come to determine your position in society.

What things are you specifically talking about that 'even rich Americans barely have access to'?

For example it is pretty common in the Nordic countries to have a vacation home where you spend summers and holidays with friends and family. And between saved parental leave, standardized vacation periods and public holidays there is time available to do so. There are certainly people who do have that in the US, but once you or your family relocates it gets a lot more tricky.

In general I just think it is a lot easier in, at least some, European countries to set yourself up for a good life. Day to day, year to year, to not endure a long commute or stressful work environment. Having time to spend with your kids while they are young, your parents before they get too old and your friends so you don't lose touch. Not having to worry about the future, managing your kids lives, the financial losses of getting sick or your career.

Once you start wanting to do things that aren't universal or the default in any country, and especially with other people in your life, you can end up paying a large premium to do so.

Re: Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

#64

Post by presscast » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 9:44 PM UTC

mhjas wrote: post #43

presscast wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree with the analysis of funding you provide. Concerning mindset, I think there's an even bigger cultural trait that's holding back French entrepreneurship: a complete absence of a "culture of failure". By and large, French culture is one of fixed mindset. Mistakes/errors/failures reveal one's limitations or flaws, and aren't perceived as an opportunity to learn and grow. This starts very early and is very much bak…

I think the biggest challenge for France in regard to startup is that society is hierarchical. I think many of the other concerns stem from that. Hierarchies makes society about ranking, which kills startup since startups are essentially about climbing the class ladder as a company (from small business to fortune 500). Pretty much all startup "hubs" are either "new world" were there weren't necessarily a lot of estab…

>I think the biggest challenge for France in regard to startup is that society is hierarchical

Agreed. At this point, I usually like to point out that hierarchical societies have their advantages. A huge asset for France is it's elite schools -- the "Grandes Écoles".

These schools are outstanding in a way that few Americans can even fathom, and their students are educated to a point that I didn't think possible until moving to Paris.

If you want the best engineers in the world, hire out of those schools. As a bonus, they aren't the sort to hop between jobs.

Re: Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

#65

Post by hrktb » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 10:01 PM UTC

presscast wrote: post #64

mhjas wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the biggest challenge for France in regard to startup is that society is hierarchical. I think many of the other concerns stem from that. Hierarchies makes society about ranking, which kills startup since startups are essentially about climbing the class ladder as a company (from small business to fortune 500). Pretty much all startup "hubs" are either "new world" were there weren't necessarily a lot of estab…

>I think the biggest challenge for France in regard to startup is that society is hierarchical Agreed. At this point, I usually like to point out that hierarchical societies have their advantages. A huge asset for France is it's elite schools -- the "Grandes Écoles". These schools are outstanding in a way that few Americans can even fathom, and their students are educated to a point that I didn't think possible until…

I have mixed feelings about the grandes ecoles. Brilliant people get there and you don’t get in and out without serious grit, a decent mind and a taste for effort.

But I tink that’s really what it is. The best engineers I have seen didn’t care for ‘burning’ years of their life in half military schools or old institutions, they went directly to CS courses to get a diploma faster and go abroad or start their own project.

Put another way, people who don’t care about prestige and having a super broad education don’t go there, and in our field I tink a ton of super talented people fit that description.

Re: Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

#66

Post by 2trill2spill » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 10:13 PM UTC

mhjas wrote: post #63

oh_sigh wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What things are you specifically talking about that 'even rich Americans barely have access to'?

For example it is pretty common in the Nordic countries to have a vacation home where you spend summers and holidays with friends and family. And between saved parental leave, standardized vacation periods and public holidays there is time available to do so. There are certainly people who do have that in the US, but once you or your family relocates it gets a lot more tricky. In general I just think it is a lot easi…

> For example it is pretty common in the Nordic countries to have a vacation home where you spend summers and holidays with friends and family. And between saved parental leave, standardized vacation periods and public holidays there is time available to do so. There are certainly people who do have that in the US, but once you or your family relocates it gets a lot more tricky.

That's also common in the United States or at least in the Upper Midwest. Just here in Minnesota there are around 124,000 seasonal properties and the average household income for the owners of these properties is $58,000 which is not rich in the United States. It's also a similar story in Wisconsin next door and other Upper Midwest states like Michigan.

[1]: https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2017/05/29/good-question-cabi...

Re: Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

#67

Post by lazyjones » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 10:15 PM UTC

jeandejean wrote: post #62

lazyjones wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> French employees won’t ditch you after a year. Once they’re on board, they tend to stick around (sometimes even too long for their own good...) You forgot to mention that you can‘t fire them at will either... It‘s such laws and excessive taxation that makes many european countries unattractive for startups.

That is just not true, it's quite easy to fire somebody in France, you just have to pay correctly for settlement.

How much is the correct amount for settlement?

Re: Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

#68

Post by maneesh » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 10:16 PM UTC

FooBarWidget wrote: post #45

presscast wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree with the analysis of funding you provide. Concerning mindset, I think there's an even bigger cultural trait that's holding back French entrepreneurship: a complete absence of a "culture of failure". By and large, French culture is one of fixed mindset. Mistakes/errors/failures reveal one's limitations or flaws, and aren't perceived as an opportunity to learn and grow. This starts very early and is very much bak…

Sigh, ditto for the Netherlands. It seems lack of culture of failure, and fixed mindset, is all over Europe.

Nassim Taleb would agree -- in Black Swan he writes: "American culture encourages the process of failure, unlike the cultures of Europe and Asia where failure is met with stigma and embarrassment. America’s specialty is to take these small risks for the rest of the world, which explains this country’s disproportionate share in innovations."

Re: Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

#69

Post by user5994461 » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 10:17 PM UTC

axtn wrote: post #52

achamayou wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s top talent graduating all the time though, you don’t necessarily need to go abroad and drag people back.

Exactly. France has extremely strong engineering schools, and almost no software industry. You wouldn’t believe the talent being wasted in banking IT desks and consulting conpanies... Not only can a well-funded startup pay them better, the work is 10x more interesting. And unlike Silicon Valley engineers, French employees won’t ditch you after a year. Once they’re on board, they tend to stick around (sometimes even t…

That. Definitely that. There is zero software industry in France. The best talents are incredibly easy to hire and retain because they have nowhere else to go.

Re: Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

#70

Post by user5994461 » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 10:21 PM UTC

lazyjones wrote: post #67

jeandejean wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is just not true, it's quite easy to fire somebody in France, you just have to pay correctly for settlement.

How much is the correct amount for settlement?

An employee can be laid off if he agrees to it but that's not like firing because it needs an agreement. I am not sure if the OP is talking about that.

It's possible to fire people without justification and the company will be brought to court. There is a new law from Macron that caps the damages the employee can get to pretty much nothing when he only has a few years of tenure or less. You could provision for a few months of salary.