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Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

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Re: Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

#51

Post by oh_sigh »

axtn wrote: post #20
johnomarkid wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Low salaries are not a good thing for the startups! Here's an article from a French engineer that is currently on the front page of HN: https://web.archive.org/web/20180925150228/https://florentcr... tldr; he moved to SF because salaries are much, much higher than in France, even considering the social benefits that you get in France. Other threads on HN have French engineers saying that they love living in France wh…

They are a benefit... if you pay people above market! That allows you to attract top talent that otherwise would be locked in at Google etc. The whole point of low salaries, for smart companies, is to be the one increasing them! Obviously that makes it a temporary advantage, as salaries start to increase... But all great advantages are temporary. The people you are talking to, who like low salaries because they want…

Low salaries also mean it is hard for normal people(ie people not from rich or well connected families) to save up enough money to self-fund a startup.

Re: Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

#52

Post by axtn »

achamayou wrote: post #44
lazyjones wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good luck getting the top talent that has moved to the US, UK or Switzerland years ago.

There’s top talent graduating all the time though, you don’t necessarily need to go abroad and drag people back.

Exactly. France has extremely strong engineering schools, and almost no software industry. You wouldn’t believe the talent being wasted in banking IT desks and consulting conpanies... Not only can a well-funded startup pay them better, the work is 10x more interesting. And unlike Silicon Valley engineers, French employees won’t ditch you after a year. Once they’re on board, they tend to stick around (sometimes even too long for their own good...)

Re: Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

#53

Post by craigsmansion »

axtn wrote: post #52
achamayou wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s top talent graduating all the time though, you don’t necessarily need to go abroad and drag people back.

Exactly. France has extremely strong engineering schools, and almost no software industry. You wouldn’t believe the talent being wasted in banking IT desks and consulting conpanies... Not only can a well-funded startup pay them better, the work is 10x more interesting. And unlike Silicon Valley engineers, French employees won’t ditch you after a year. Once they’re on board, they tend to stick around (sometimes even t…

MIT used to be the dream, now it's Inria where all the magic seems to originate.

(I blame the switch from scheme to Python)

Re: Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

#55

Post by jkaplowitz »

zwp wrote: post #29
EZ-E wrote: post #8

My opinion : the low salaries of engineers, high taxes and bureaucracy hold back the startup scene. Also, the mentality toward technical positions, in France if you didn't go from engineer to manager by 35 year old people wonder what's wrong with you. https://imgur.com/a/MOlau0V

That's an interesting picture. I took those numbers and compared them to Wikipedia's purchasing-power adjusted average wage figures for 2017 at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_w... . Here are the results sorted by ratio of average developer salary to average salary in each country. You get the best bang for your buck in .il and .fr doesn't (quite) get the wooden spoon. Country Ratio dev:avg…

I'd be interested to see the Canada numbers broken down more locally. I'm quite sure that my current home city of Montreal would look a lot healthier than Vancouver, for example.

Re: Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

#56

Post by Rjevski »

I am French, moved to the UK a few years ago.

There are many cultural issues that will prevent France from ever becoming a startup nation.

One of them is the fact that there's this idea floating around where you have to have higher education (Bac +5, aka 5 years of uni) to do anything even remotely related to IT, as if it was some kind of rocket science (where a degree would actually help). In fact, the first thing many French people will ask me when they learn about my job is how do I do it and whether I went to uni. They are all shocked when I tell them no when everywhere else self-taught developers are a common occurrence.

You simply cannot get any IT job without that; even junior positions require it. This automatically disqualifies a lot of self-taught developers (like me) even if they have actual work experience, and I'm not sure if the ones that are left (those with the required education) are any better considering they never had the chance to work on a real project.

The salaries are also awful. As a senior engineer (with the required education) you're still only looking around at 40k euros. I was already making more than that as a junior in London! (not to mention the Euros vs British Pounds conversion). An engineer is also not that well placed on the social ladder, management (even something relatively simple like running a small shop/restaurant) is deemed much more prestigious than software engineering.

The relationship between employees and management is toxic. There is no concept of teamwork and where the "boss" is actually working with you towards the same goal as you. Instead, the boss is always seen as an enemy. There is no complicity what so ever between employees and management. This was actually a shock for me when I got my first job in the UK and realised that actually bosses are cool (Finally bureaucracy and taxes are still awful. Even if you can theoretically get tax relief on new companies and so on, the bureaucracy involved is a tax itself, and often not worth it.

This comment thread (on an earlier post about this) sums it up pretty well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17169504

Re: Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

#57

Post by lazyjones »

axtn wrote: post #52
achamayou wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s top talent graduating all the time though, you don’t necessarily need to go abroad and drag people back.

Exactly. France has extremely strong engineering schools, and almost no software industry. You wouldn’t believe the talent being wasted in banking IT desks and consulting conpanies... Not only can a well-funded startup pay them better, the work is 10x more interesting. And unlike Silicon Valley engineers, French employees won’t ditch you after a year. Once they’re on board, they tend to stick around (sometimes even t…

> French employees won’t ditch you after a year. Once they’re on board, they tend to stick around (sometimes even too long for their own good...)

You forgot to mention that you can‘t fire them at will either... It‘s such laws and excessive taxation that makes many european countries unattractive for startups.

Re: Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

#58

Post by alacombe »

There is also a big social difference, if not social stigma of being a developer (and other "blue-collar" job in general).

In the US, it's not unusual to be in a startup in your late 30's / 40's, and for founders (especially in the bay area) to have gray hair / beard. In France, if you are still a developer in your late 30's and haven't moved to a management, paper pushing, position, you're pretty much a loser.

To some extend, there is a general disgust in France for being down the food chain, even if you're a rock star.

note: I'm French now living on the west coast, making a figure I'd never do in France.

Re: Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

#59

Post by jeandejean »

johnomarkid wrote: post #18
axtn wrote: post #15

France has plenty of early stage startups, in fact the increase in size and quality in their ecosystem in just a few years has been very impressive. What’s missing in France right now is an ecosystem of fast-growing mid-stage startups - series B and above. I think that’s caused by a combination of: 1) mindset (thinking globally from say one is easier said than done when nobody around you has done it before) 2) lack o…

Low salaries are not a good thing for the startups! Here's an article from a French engineer that is currently on the front page of HN: https://web.archive.org/web/20180925150228/https://florentcr... tldr; he moved to SF because salaries are much, much higher than in France, even considering the social benefits that you get in France. Other threads on HN have French engineers saying that they love living in France wh…

I do agree that low salary is an issue, but it's improving. On the other hand, it's very hard to compare everything, when you're young, single and healthy, it's a no brainer that you should take your chance in the US. But if you have a family, suddenly are diagnosed with a costly disease of whatever kind, I bet you wish to be in Europe.

So articles that say "you should go west" just applies to their authors, everybody has their own set of parameters to evaluate, and the answer isn't so obvious. I personally have kids and a wife that earns a lot of money. I've done the maths, it's a no brainer for me financially to stay in Europe...

Re: Startup Nation? Entrepreneurs Still Toil in Macron's France

#60

Post by alacombe »

Rjevski wrote: post #56

I am French, moved to the UK a few years ago. There are many cultural issues that will prevent France from ever becoming a startup nation. One of them is the fact that there's this idea floating around where you have to have higher education (Bac +5, aka 5 years of uni) to do anything even remotely related to IT, as if it was some kind of rocket science (where a degree would actually help). In fact, the first thing m…

French expat on the west coast here, I totally agree with you on the social stigma of being a "rank-and-file" developer.
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