Treating the Bay Area as like working in the mines • Hacker News Board

Re: Treating the Bay Area as like working in the mines

#41

Post by ryandrake » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 11:41 AM UTC

titzer wrote: post #19

After 5 years there, my conclusion was that the Bay Area runs on human souls. It might not be like the black lung, dirt-faced dangerous mines of old, but if you end up working 10 or 12 hours a day, are caged, distracted, annoyed (but fed!) at work, go home to a meager existence, have zero friends, zero romance, and your mind is hijacked to the point where you literally cannot think about anything else and relax , the…

I’ve been here only 8 years at this point but I find the Bay Area is what you make of it. If you want to work 12 hour days, go ahead and do that. If you want no friends or hobbies, that can be accommodated. If you want to spend $5k/mo in rent so you can live in the city, knock yourself out and do it, nobody is stopping you. But these are all optional, and avoidable.

Re: Treating the Bay Area as like working in the mines

#42

Post by jiveturkey » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 11:44 AM UTC

titzer wrote: post #19

After 5 years there, my conclusion was that the Bay Area runs on human souls. It might not be like the black lung, dirt-faced dangerous mines of old, but if you end up working 10 or 12 hours a day, are caged, distracted, annoyed (but fed!) at work, go home to a meager existence, have zero friends, zero romance, and your mind is hijacked to the point where you literally cannot think about anything else and relax , the…

not my experience. yup worked super hard but also partied pretty hard and made lots of lifelong friends. you do that when you have a shared experience.

anyway just saying, i found my first five years to be collegial. i would never ever do it again but i look back with fondness.

of course it only works if you are in an exciting startup or small company. i very very much doubt you are going to forge bonds if your first job is at FAANG and you did not attend shool here.

i cannot believe new grads would come here for the FAANG experience. that does indeed seem awful to me.

Re: Treating the Bay Area as like working in the mines

#43

Post by ryandrake » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 11:45 AM UTC

code4tee wrote: post #28

Its a harsh but fair analogy. The region has lost its soul. People moving there have little intention of setting down roots and staying long term. People who have lived there long term are just waiting to cash out on their house and move far away and just hoping the local tech ecosystem doesn’t implode first. Employees think they’re playing the companies by taking big pay then getting out and going elsewhere. Compani…

What’s wrong with planning to live somewhere until you retire, then moving to a lower col, lower taxes area? This is literally what most people do, at least in the US. I don’t know anyone who plans to live here long term. Why is that necessary for a region?

Re: Treating the Bay Area as like working in the mines

#44

Post by woolvalley » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 11:55 AM UTC

humanrebar wrote: post #27

woolvalley wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$5500 is not a realistic rent option for someone living alone. You can get one bedrooms or studios in nice neighborhoods for under $3000-$2500. You can also live 45 minutes away from employment centers and pay less. So the math is significantly different from that inflated price he is talking about. Also by commuting you can use company busses if you work at bigco, subsudizing living far away.

Single parents generally don't have roommates.

Parents tend to not live in SF downtown and have long commutes.

Re: Treating the Bay Area as like working in the mines

#45

Post by rconti » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 12:11 PM UTC

titzer wrote: post #19

After 5 years there, my conclusion was that the Bay Area runs on human souls. It might not be like the black lung, dirt-faced dangerous mines of old, but if you end up working 10 or 12 hours a day, are caged, distracted, annoyed (but fed!) at work, go home to a meager existence, have zero friends, zero romance, and your mind is hijacked to the point where you literally cannot think about anything else and relax , the…

Protip: Don't do that.

Don't work for a soul sucking company. Don't have a crappy boss. Don't refuse to have hobbies, don't refuse to have friends.

Moved to the bay area 16 years ago. Love it. Can't imagine going back to the northwest.

I've worked at a handful of tech companies and NEVER felt pressured to burn myself out.

Life is what you make of it. That's not to say there aren't crappy employers out there, and it's not so crap on the plight of those who feel stuck. Those employer should be held to account, I don't want to blame the victim.

But I've seen nothing about this area that makes it more likely to happen here than anywhere else.

Re: Treating the Bay Area as like working in the mines

#46

Post by CamTin » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 12:27 PM UTC

jfindley wrote: post #30

badpun wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess was that standards of living were drastically lower back then, so the accumulated factory wages could make a difference. Back then, people lived in crappy little houses with no electricity, no water/sewage, obviously had no cars etc. There was relatively little stuff in their lives, so, as long as the land provided you with food, you didn't need much money. My grandma used to live like this in rural Poland -…

Isn't that likely to be the same as what people 90 years in the future will say about us, though?

In most of the developed world, literally all of our necessities (housing, healthcare, even food) require interaction with the money economy, which is the opposite of what is described here, so probably not. Even the Amish have to interact enough with the "English" economy to buy things like nails, and to pay their property taxes. Possibly we can operate this way again, with nano-factories turning homegrown soybeans into jeans and iPads or something, and a self-healing infrastructure, but that's far future sci-fi, not current reality.

Re: Treating the Bay Area as like working in the mines

#47

Post by a008t » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 12:41 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #34

EZ-E wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It might not be like the black lung, dirt-faced dangerous mines of old, but if you end up working 10 or 12 hours a day, are caged, distracted, annoyed (but fed!) at work, go home to a meager existence, have zero friends, zero romance, and your mind is hijacked to the point where you literally cannot think about anything else and relax, then your soul is being pretty much sucked dry. I would get my soul sucked dry f…

One thing to consider is that if you spend several years with zero friends, zero romance and doing only single thing, then it is hard to start socializing again (assuming work is work and not socializing moved to workplace). You forget what it is like, how to do it, how to choose people to be with. You wont know what to do with time.

At the same time, it's better to be rich and miserable than poor and miserable. It is easy to have zero friends, zero romance and zero meaningful hobbies under almost any circumstances for the kind of people that end up getting jobs in SV anyway.

Re: Treating the Bay Area as like working in the mines

#48

Post by carlmr » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 1:03 PM UTC

nigifabio wrote: post #36

carlmr wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100k$ won't create much savings in the Bay Area. At least aim for 200k$ there if you want to sell your life for years.

100k in most of European big cities are not going to send you to pension at 40 either, 200k is the 6figures salary of the 90s

True, in Europe high taxes take an additional toll, also the salary situation is so that it's basically impossible to get 200k in Europe if you're an employee.

Re: Treating the Bay Area as like working in the mines

#49

Post by titzer » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 1:21 PM UTC

rconti wrote: post #45

titzer wrote: post #19

After 5 years there, my conclusion was that the Bay Area runs on human souls. It might not be like the black lung, dirt-faced dangerous mines of old, but if you end up working 10 or 12 hours a day, are caged, distracted, annoyed (but fed!) at work, go home to a meager existence, have zero friends, zero romance, and your mind is hijacked to the point where you literally cannot think about anything else and relax , the…

Protip: Don't do that. Don't work for a soul sucking company. Don't have a crappy boss. Don't refuse to have hobbies, don't refuse to have friends. Moved to the bay area 16 years ago. Love it. Can't imagine going back to the northwest. I've worked at a handful of tech companies and NEVER felt pressured to burn myself out. Life is what you make of it. That's not to say there aren't crappy employers out there, and it's…

> But I've seen nothing about this area that makes it more likely to happen here than anywhere else.

Everyone has different experiences, but this does not really jibe with the incentive structures of Tech companies. Heroic hackers with legendary exploits are not only lionized, but everyone is rewarded with "pay for performance" incentive structures, and of course, the elusive jackpot of startup glory.

In my experience it's absolutely part of the culture in Silicon Valley that top hackers burn themselves out like this.

Having a normal life seems to be counter to the prevailing mindset and the very real, very palpable monetary incentives.

Re: Treating the Bay Area as like working in the mines

#50

Post by watwut » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 1:29 PM UTC

a008t wrote: post #47

watwut wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing to consider is that if you spend several years with zero friends, zero romance and doing only single thing, then it is hard to start socializing again (assuming work is work and not socializing moved to workplace). You forget what it is like, how to do it, how to choose people to be with. You wont know what to do with time.

At the same time, it's better to be rich and miserable than poor and miserable. It is easy to have zero friends, zero romance and zero meaningful hobbies under almost any circumstances for the kind of people that end up getting jobs in SV anyway.

The dichotomy here is not between dirt poor and apple CEO.

Also, most young people who end up in SV are normally adjusted fully able to have friends and romance. They are also able to enjoy movies, read books, etc etc etc the same way as other people.