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YubiKey 5 Series with New NFC and FIDO2 Passwordless Features

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171–180 of 187 posts

Re: YubiKey 5 Series with New NFC and FIDO2 Passwordless Features

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I say take a morning and print out all your one-time recovery keys, put them in an envelope, and put that envelope next to your other important but rarely used documents.

Then buy a fireproof document safe and put all those documents in there.

Off topic: I feel like a fireproof document safe is something that I should own, but every time I shop for one I find myself going down a rabbit hole of unfamiliar terminology and certifications. As with many things, it seems like the marketing for such safes doesn't always match the fine print.

(And sometime the fine print just seems impractical: I'm unlikely to actually air out my safe for 30 minutes each week, but could replace a desiccant a few times a year.)

Does anyone have a recommendation for a safe that can protect paper documents and digital media from both fire and water in realistic conditions?

Re: YubiKey 5 Series with New NFC and FIDO2 Passwordless Features

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well code which U2f token generate with the help of Google authenticator has ONLY 6 digits. 6 digits that's not extremely hard to brute force is that right ? If you are using additional backup u2f token (2 tokens in total) hacker has chance 1:500 000 to find out correct PIN is my assumption right ?

You seem confused. I think you're describing TOTP, but this whole thread is about FIDO. WebAuthn, U2F and similar FIDO based schemes are sending some public key signed blobs over the network. A PIN is purely a local protection, it's not sent over the wire. So a hacker can't just try guessing the PIN. First they need to steal your physical token, only then could they start guessing PINs for the stolen token.

And even then, the token would lock itself down after too many incorrect PIN attemtpts.

Re: YubiKey 5 Series with New NFC and FIDO2 Passwordless Features

#173
post #123
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how much more ruggerized you need it. It's already pretty dam strong. I've had a neo on my keys for years and it shows no sign of ware. They already are water proof and can be run over by a car. So unless you want to take a hammer to it, it should be rugged enough.

I'd be more concerned about general reliability. How long will these last? Because I think they should last at a minimum 10 years. If you only use one for an account, and it breaks on you, you're screwed. So I would use at least 2, but hopefully websites will allow this, and that will probably be the largest bottleneck in the future. I couldn't care less about "SMS backups" or such nonsense, as that completely defeat…

My friend lost his YubiKey and found it embedded in his gravel driveway six months later. Still worked like nothing had happened.

Re: YubiKey 5 Series with New NFC and FIDO2 Passwordless Features

#174
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

U2F can only be used as a second factor. FIDO2 can be used as a replacement for a username/password, so you can go to a site, insert your FIDO2 key and log in without any other information. Old Yubikeys only support U2F, and there's a Yubico FIDO2 key. Browser support isn't there yet, I've been trying to write a Django library for it but no browser will support the complete FIDO2 flow as far as I know.

Ah, that's perfect. A hardware token as the /only/ factor sounds like a bridge too far anyhow.

It's a hardware token that supports a local PIN as a second factor.

Re: YubiKey 5 Series with New NFC and FIDO2 Passwordless Features

#175
post #118
post #57

I think the YK5's biggest problem is that the YK Neo and 4, which have been out for years, were already so good. Unless you really care about NFC at the same time as RSA-4096, I'm not sure I see a big impetus to upgrade. Hopefully the USB-C line won't be plagued with supply issues. WebAuthn is mostly boring and I think that's mostly a good thing. I'm glad that there's a way to evolve the spec. Some of the changes are…

> the YK Neo and 4, which have been out for years, were already so good I agree that the keys themselves are good; I just wish that configuring Linux systems to take advantage of them would be easier. I've been working on setting my systems up in bits of my free time for more than a month now. I'm in my last stretch, but I have to do some weird things. Maybe I'm just trying to squeeze more out of the key than most wo…

Do you care if the auth is GPG or U2F? Seems like you want -L to forward a socket, and GPG_AGENT_INFO to point to it. I tweeted this series a while ago because it’s hard to find how that works: https://twitter.com/lvh/status/966408198558244864?s=21

Re: YubiKey 5 Series with New NFC and FIDO2 Passwordless Features

#176
post #175
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the YK Neo and 4, which have been out for years, were already so good I agree that the keys themselves are good; I just wish that configuring Linux systems to take advantage of them would be easier. I've been working on setting my systems up in bits of my free time for more than a month now. I'm in my last stretch, but I have to do some weird things. Maybe I'm just trying to squeeze more out of the key than most wo…

Do you care if the auth is GPG or U2F? Seems like you want -L to forward a socket, and GPG_AGENT_INFO to point to it. I tweeted this series a while ago because it’s hard to find how that works: https://twitter.com/lvh/status/966408198558244864?s=21

Not U2F because it requires the systems to always have an internet connection. I could setup an authentication server on each machine to avoid that, but I think that would make replay attacks possible (nevermind, see EDIT). Also, since GPG is an option for this, it means that I can just depend on that for absolutely everything. If I break the key in two, I can use an encrypted backup of the GPG key to keep working (authenticating, decrypting, and signing) until I get a new yubikey and write the backup to it.

It's an -R forwarding what I want. -L would require the host I'm logging into to automatically login back to the host I'm at. That's something that raises way to many convoluted issues. By using -R and ControlMaster, and overriding ssh with one that sets up the forwarding first if the corresponding control socket does not exist, I can share the forwarding among all the ssh terminals I've opened to the same host.

I saw GPG_AGENT_INFO on the manpage, but it says that it's an obsolete environment variable that's now ignored. In my system, gpg2 is a symlink to gpg. I wondered if maybe gpg decided to ignore or use GPG_AGENT_INFO depending on $0, but from grepping the source I don't think it does. It only appears on documentation and automated tests. Still, it might be a good starting point to check the source of gpg 1.4 to get an idea of how to patch gpg2 to get the agent path from an environment variable. Thanks for the help.

EDIT: I made the U2F comment assuming that it works like OTP, but there is some material online referring to it as a protocol using a challenge-response mechanism. If that's the case, what I said would be false. Still, I feel I'm close to an ideal with GPG, so I'm not sure there would be something to gain by using U2F. Unfortunately, most of the material online about it is about using it to login to specific web services like Google.

EDIT 2: I was taking a quick look at pam-u2f[1], and I found this piece interesting:

> manual: Set to drop to a manual console where challenges are printed on screen and response read from standard input. Useful for debugging and SSH sessions without U2F-support from the SSH client/server. If enabled, interactive mode becomes redundant and has no effect.

I imagine this is in consideration with U2F keys that come with a keypad. Otherwise, terminal emulators would have to be extended to support an escape sequence with which it could recognize when a challenge has been presented to automatically pass it on to the key connected.

EDIT 3: Extending my terminal emulator like that and using pam-u2f (after extending it to use that escape sequence) would eventually lead to solving the problem of using sudo remotely. However, going the route of forwarding my gpg-agent also allows me to use gpg (and dependents like pass) remotely. It also seems relatively easier since the only step left for me to figure out is how to get gpg to accept the agent socket path via environment variable.

EDIT 4: On "U2F-support from the SSH client/server", I don't suppose adding an authentication method like that would work when chaining ssh interactively (calling ssh to another machine from a ssh session), like how you can forward ssh agents with -A. I wonder if it's possible to add U2F support to ssh agents. I imagine the agent works on a challenge-response mechanism too, in a sense. Maybe the agent can be made to work like a proxy to the key. That way, -A can be made to work to forward authentication to the key.

[1] https://developers.yubico.com/pam-u2f/

Re: YubiKey 5 Series with New NFC and FIDO2 Passwordless Features

#177
post #176
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you care if the auth is GPG or U2F? Seems like you want -L to forward a socket, and GPG_AGENT_INFO to point to it. I tweeted this series a while ago because it’s hard to find how that works: https://twitter.com/lvh/status/966408198558244864?s=21

Not U2F because it requires the systems to always have an internet connection. I could setup an authentication server on each machine to avoid that, but I think that would make replay attacks possible (nevermind, see EDIT). Also, since GPG is an option for this, it means that I can just depend on that for absolutely everything. If I break the key in two, I can use an encrypted backup of the GPG key to keep working (a…

EDIT 5 (can't edit anymore :( ): I imagine that's what gpg-agent does when working as a ssh-agent, and the ssh server has a public key corresponding to the openpgp card that would be the yubikey. Really, U2F seems to do a subset of what PGP can do.

Re: YubiKey 5 Series with New NFC and FIDO2 Passwordless Features

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to them, it's because "there isn't room on the USB-C devices for an NFC antenna": https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1044254654366769152

How big is the NFC antenna?! The size difference of 5C and 5C nano is pretty big but if it still can't fit the antenna then it must be huge

The YubiKey 5C is really quite small in comparison to the normal YubiKey 5.

Re: YubiKey 5 Series with New NFC and FIDO2 Passwordless Features

#179
post #33
post #24

Honest question, what happens when you lose one of these ?

For 2FA, having multiple of these or some kind of recovery code tends to be the answer, as you can remove the keys from sites you use it on. I am less willing to use something like this for passwordless logins. These types of devices should be part of the "something you have" part of 2FA, which should always be paired with a "something you know". Maybe I'm missing a step here, but why would you ever use this for pass…

For U2F you're right that it becomes single factor if you use the device as the only factor. With FIDO2 (which is what makes passwordless available), however, the device supports a local PIN as the "something you know" factor - and it's also a better kind of knowledge factor than a traditional password since it's never sent over the network.

Re: YubiKey 5 Series with New NFC and FIDO2 Passwordless Features

#180
post #24

Honest question, what happens when you lose one of these ?

It's smart to buy two at the same time. While you can't copy a Yubikey, you can choose how to initialize them and you can initialize both identical to one another and then lock them down. That way they're copies of one another and fully backed up. I keep my main one on me at all times and have my backup in a safe place.

That won't work for U2F or FIDO2, unfortunately, since the master key is not configurable. You need to enroll both keys with each new service, sadly.
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