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Linux – The beginning of the end?

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Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#171

Post by notacoward »

ryandrake wrote: post #163
notacoward wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fanatics in the OSS world (and Tech at large) seem to have forgotten that Silicon Valley != The World When it comes to attitudes and languages, Silicon Valley is sometimes quite different than tech in the rest of the US. As a developer in the northeastern US, one of the adjustments I've had to make in working for an archetypal Silicon Valley company is to the way people express themselves and particularly how t…

Yea, if you've been in the SV bubble for too long you might not even perceive it! One of the biggest cultural things I struggled to get used to when I moved out to the Bay Area for work (originally from the northeast too), was the extent to which I needed to constantly self-censor and water down my wording to the point of meaninglessness, simply to avoid offending someone or coming across as too harsh. People out her…

Here's a question I often like to ask myself about people I interact with:

> What is this person's equivalent of "F you"?

For a typical east-coaster or northern European it's likely to be exactly as in the question. ;) For some people, "I'm not sure I 100% agree" is about as close as you'll ever get. The left-coast average seems to be much closer to the second option. I'm not saying it's a bad thing - in fact I find it quite pleasant - but it can trip you up until you get used to it. At my last job, it took me years to figure out how to interpret my Indian colleagues' responses correctly (if indeed I ever did). This kind of calibration is an under-appreciated skill.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#172

Post by notacoward »

dang wrote: post #170
notacoward wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the SV influence is probably much stronger than those numbers show. For one thing, what are the numbers like when adjusted for posting frequency? Five users who each post once a month don't balance out even one of the people who post a dozen comments a day. Also, people who have very strong connections with SV companies as employers, investors, or even customers are likely to adopt some of those attitudes eve…

The numbers vary depending on what we measure but they just don't vary that much. For example, when you look at total submissions and comments, the SV portion goes up to 10.9%. The highest SV number I've seen is actually for total page views (14.4%), which may suggest that SV users are reading more than posting, relative to other demographics. When I read your comment I can't help but hear it as taking a step away fr…

> users who post submissions and comments

That's a far cry from weighting by comment instead of by user, not to mention the other factors I mentioned. Maybe it would help if you could provide a link where people could look at the raw data (properly anonymized of course) and do their own analysis instead of relying on yours.

> people's preconceptions about HN are amazingly strong

Indeed. As you point out, nobody's exempt. Of course, there are ways around that. The proof's in the pudding. There are probably many people here who could do a real sentiment analysis and compare the result to other sites. I'm as sure as you are of what that would show, even though we make different predictions.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#173

Post by dang »

notacoward wrote: post #172
dang wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The numbers vary depending on what we measure but they just don't vary that much. For example, when you look at total submissions and comments, the SV portion goes up to 10.9%. The highest SV number I've seen is actually for total page views (14.4%), which may suggest that SV users are reading more than posting, relative to other demographics. When I read your comment I can't help but hear it as taking a step away fr…

> users who post submissions and comments That's a far cry from weighting by comment instead of by user, not to mention the other factors I mentioned. Maybe it would help if you could provide a link where people could look at the raw data (properly anonymized of course) and do their own analysis instead of relying on yours. > people's preconceptions about HN are amazingly strong Indeed. As you point out, nobody's exe…

I don't understand what you mean by weighting by comment?

The corpus of HN comments is public and available to anyone who wants to do a sentiment analysis on them. I've not seen any compelling-enough examples of sentiment analysis to want to do it.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#174

Post by echaozh »

alkonaut wrote: post #65
xeeeeeeeeeeenu wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is always a difficult line to draw. It's not difficult at all. What contributors are doing privately has nothing to do with the project.

As I was trying to explain - behavior in the project is certainly more important, but outside behavior can’t be entirely ignored. Just like in a workplace.

Why is the project like a workplace? Do the contributors all get paid? Do they all, or do most of them consider it as a workplace? What makes you think it's proper to treat the project like a workplace, and downplay those think otherwise?

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#175

Post by alkonaut »

echaozh wrote: post #174
alkonaut wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I was trying to explain - behavior in the project is certainly more important, but outside behavior can’t be entirely ignored. Just like in a workplace.

Why is the project like a workplace? Do the contributors all get paid? Do they all, or do most of them consider it as a workplace? What makes you think it's proper to treat the project like a workplace, and downplay those think otherwise?

Because it’s a collaborative environment with humans. Like a workplace. Why would pay be relevant to expected behavior? Is someone really going to say e.g that it’s within their right to be racist because they aren’t getting paid not to?

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#176

Post by kjeetgill »

ryandrake wrote: post #163
notacoward wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fanatics in the OSS world (and Tech at large) seem to have forgotten that Silicon Valley != The World When it comes to attitudes and languages, Silicon Valley is sometimes quite different than tech in the rest of the US. As a developer in the northeastern US, one of the adjustments I've had to make in working for an archetypal Silicon Valley company is to the way people express themselves and particularly how t…

Yea, if you've been in the SV bubble for too long you might not even perceive it! One of the biggest cultural things I struggled to get used to when I moved out to the Bay Area for work (originally from the northeast too), was the extent to which I needed to constantly self-censor and water down my wording to the point of meaninglessness, simply to avoid offending someone or coming across as too harsh. People out her…

I've never had too bad a time getting away with f-bombs though I have weaned myself off using the n-word for camaraderie (opting for homies). I've found it all depends on reading the room. If people know you and what you're about, they'll take it for what it is.

That said I couch my words with "maybes and probablies" all the time by habit. I suppose it just feels more precise? I save hard assertions for when I mean them.

Disclaimer: Bay native.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#177

Post by kjeetgill »

rbanffy wrote: post #161
kingofhdds wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you really read the text to the end? "Verbal assault" doesn't have a universal meaning, politeness is VERY culture-dependent, and in modern IT everybody is forced to accept US corporate standard which I'm not even sure is universal for the majority of Americans, and often perceived as grossly insincere, and restrictive to the point it's practically abusive by people raised in other cultures.

In what culture calling someone a fucking inbred imbecile would be considered polite?

Maybe not polite, but plenty would read it for what was meant? I'm not saying it's not unprofessional (and "the community" is probably better off without it) but perfectly healthy environments can include that kinda talk.

Plenty of friend groups cuss each other out in good fun.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#178

Post by Certhas »

kaneua wrote: post #156
Certhas wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks. I don't know, this is the topic I get most heated about, I successfully lead pretty diverse teams, this definitely wouldn't happen to me in that context. After all discussion message boards like this are also a different context than a professional mailing list (and I strongly believe that context is important and not always appropriately taken into account). Just because something isn't that hard, doesn't me…

> Just because something isn't that hard, doesn't mean we don't slip up sometimes. Code of Conduct that you are defending doesn't mention it. It allows to state someone guilty right after first "slip up". Now I can take your comments and present them to the pretty diverse teams you successfully lead and you may be expelled from them due to your heated arguments on HN. But I wouldn't do that. I'm just making an exampl…

It doesn't mention automatic sanctions either. Your argument is essentially: If we are OK with some sanctions on some behaviour what will stop someone from enforcing unreasonable and draconic sanctions!

To me this is roughly analogous to: If we let a maintainer decide what code to accept into the Kernel, they can just take malicious or suboptimal code and merge it!

I have seen attempted overreach in using statements made in different contexts against individuals, but overall it seems that these overreach situations were mostly corrected.

In fact a well written CoC should protect against this sort of stuff as well. It should make explicit this defence: This is my personal handle, not associated to my professional career, thus I am not representing my employer or an open source entity when I argue here.

The arguments I've encountered here in this thread are not for better CoCs, or for how we should behave towards each other, but just blanket rejections of CoCs.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#179

Post by Certhas »

zeroname wrote: post #147
Certhas wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I was called out on it, and I corrected myself. I wouldn't want to be part of a project that bans people who make an effort towards decency. The fact that standards differ and a consensus needs to be found for what constitutes decency is not an argument against it. What point are you trying to illustrate? Are you saying I shouldn't have been called out on it? Because I disagree. The fact was, I found the post I…

> What point are you trying to illustrate? Are you saying I shouldn't have been called out on it? Because I disagree. The fact was, I found the post I replied to annoying, and I replied in a tone that was stronger than it needed to be. It's a good thing that was called out. Next time I'll take a breather before replying and we'll have a more constructive exchange. See, that's what I disagree with. To me that reads li…

Does it look like I'm shying away from conflict here?

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#180

Post by Certhas »

stonith wrote: post #134
Certhas wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I was called out on it, and I corrected myself. I wouldn't want to be part of a project that bans people who make an effort towards decency. The fact that standards differ and a consensus needs to be found for what constitutes decency is not an argument against it. What point are you trying to illustrate? Are you saying I shouldn't have been called out on it? Because I disagree. The fact was, I found the post I…

I think part of the problem is that in the CoC context, the slighted party now looks at your username, cross references it against reddit and twitter, searches your posts for something else to take umbrage at, and makes the case that you should be excluded from the community. The result is a very real chilling effect on speech on all public platforms because now you're never allowed to make a comment that might be ta…

I agree with this worry and think a CoC should make clear that it covers conduct within the project only.

That said, this chilling effect seems to come more from companies and public institutions in the UK/US than CoCs in the OpenSource community. I agree that this is something to clearly position against.

And I believe a well written CoC can help here by making this explicit: For example: By refering to behaviour in an official capacity. There is some subtlty with OpenSource projects and less formalized roles here. So that's a discussion worth having.

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