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Linux – The beginning of the end?

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Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#141

Post by throw_away5838 »

belorn wrote: post #124
rbanffy wrote: post #9

I really, genuinely, don't understand why such a bland code of conduct would be a turn off to anyone. I may not be easy to be around, but I try not to be abrasive while, at the same time, making clear why I think something is the way I think. If you think someone is wrong very often, I believe saying why the person is wrong on every occasion will provide them with actionable information much better than calling them…

A repeating pattern I saw on the mailing list is that people who oppose the code of conduct does so from fear that it will be wielded as a weapon in misunderstandings and politics. What I also saw is basically 3 different type of camps. The one I mentioned above. The second group which think the code of conduct is good, needed, and will change the kernel maintainers so it has more diverse group. Last the group that i…

I believe that I need it to feel safe. But ironically, I don't feel safe saying that here after reading the rest of the comments. Posting from a throwaway for obvious reasons.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#142

Post by ThrowawayR2 »

pjc50 wrote: post #87
nalllar wrote: post #73

/r/linux has been full of arguments about this recently. The moderation team claims that many of the people arguing against the CoC appear to be new to /r/linux. > We have noticed a large influx of accounts this past week that have never commented or posted in /r/Linux before. We have also seen a large number of accounts being created just to comment on these posts. ~ /u/Kruug From https://aa.reddit.com/r/linux/comme…

Yes, the problem is there's a significant ""pro-abuse"" movement around who are willing to turn up anywhere these issues are discussed despite not having any previous involvement with the community and argue that they need to be continued to drive away marginalised people and anyone who doesn't have an extremely thick skin. (Not directed at anyone specific, but I notice some green text in this thread too)

> ...there's a significant "pro-abuse" movement around who are willing to turn up anywhere these issues are discussed...

Ah, the classic "Anyone who disagrees with my beliefs is a 'pro-abuser'" argument. Very persuasive.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#143

Post by daxorid »

vesak wrote: post #7
throwaway_9832 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was the same for me when Go introduced the CoC. I remember a witch-hunt conducted by someone on one of the important developers because of his language on some other forum. It just reeked of BS and pseudo superiority. I consider myself tolerant and liberal yet I find it bad. I wish people realise that CoC is not a passive constitution. It becomes an active weapon.. and most victims are the ones who actually contri…

Rust, the programming language project, is one of the most inclusive projects there is, and they have a strong CoC. They seem to be doing fine. I don't think this is going to kill Linux. As for Linus's vacation/break/whatever, it's good that they're practicing giving the reins away. It is bound to happen at some future anyway. It's equally good that they're practicing behaving well, because it's quite possible that t…

> Rust, the programming language project, is one of the most inclusive projects there is

Right. Let's see Klabnik accept a PR from Curtis Yarvin. The "inclusiveness" of Rust, and projects like it, only applies if you hold the correct opinions.

The definition of "inclusive" as viewed by most of these CoCs is extremely narrow.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#144

Post by adamrezich »

notacoward wrote: post #111

To me, it seems that the biggest lesson here has to do with cults of personality. No matter how awesome he is, Linus should never have been put up on such a high pedestal, given such a complete pass on everything he said, for so long. The longer it went on, the more he attracted both imitators and detractors. When he had a change of heart (and BTW I think the person who talked to him and finally made a difference was…

This is a highly revisionist version of events.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#145

Post by zeroname »

Certhas wrote: post #119
zeroname wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because behaving like a decent human being is that hard, isn't it? If a code of conduct hurts your feelings that much maybe you're just not cut out for collaborative work. Who gets to decide what's "decent"? Do you not realize that what you just wrote can be considered [inappropriate], a [personal attack] and/or [trolling]? Do it once more, perhaps unwittingly, and you're a repeat offender. Three strikes and you ar…

I adopted a better tone in one of the replies higher up, but I do not believe I substantially misrepresent the argument (which is now flagged so I can't see it anymore). Also the CoC explicitly gives a list of examples on what is decent/indecent behavior. It's a good one to me. Ultimately the answer is the same as with anything in a collaborative group: The group has to come to a consensus on what is and isn't decent…

> Every abuse of a CoC is by definition public

That is untrue.

> But overall I have seen a lot more whinging reactions along the lines of "how dare you put your politics here!" than actual examples of abuses.

That is besides the point.

> [1] Remember the "fork their repository" and dongle jokes debacle from a few years back? The outcome of that was that the accused was initially quickly fired (institutional overreaction to a ridiculous accusation), but ultimately got a new job immediately. The accuser on the other hand got a whole ton of abuse, lost her business, and last I checked was still out of a job.

Well, okay, what do we actually learn from that unfortunate turn of events though? If you ask me, it's that CoCs cause more problems than they solve, for everyone involved. I actually gave you the example where the person who introduced the CoC got thrown out via the CoC.

> The idea that on balance the social power has shifted too far into the direction of the accusers is absurd to me. It just does not fit the world I observe. Every public accuser still get's harassed a lot. There are still plenty of incentives to not publicly accuse.

I'm not sure what your argument is here. I'm not making a "power balance" argument myself, your argument couldn't be that it all evens out because everyone's life will be ruined.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#146

Post by Liskni_si »

alkonaut wrote: post #43
aikah wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> is one of the most inclusive projects there is There is absolutely no proof a CoC drives "inclusiveness", whatever it means, however there are multiple examples where codes of conducts were used to exclude contributors because they said something someone did not like in a setting completely unrelated to the project community. https://www.inc.com/sonya-mann/drupal-larry-garfield-gor.htm... CoC are political tools to…

> said something someone did not like in a setting completely unrelated to the project community. This is always a difficult line to draw. If you find out someone is a nazi (and thus would like to see you dead or preferably never born) it's hard to just look past that fact and colllaborate constructively just because the behavior was "unrelated to the project". The simple rule would be- would you be fired on the spot…

> would you be fired on the spot from your workplace if these comments were discovered

That is not a simple rule at all: there are all kinds of workplaces out there in the world, some of which allow drunk naked people cursing while puking at the same time.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#147

Post by zeroname »

Certhas wrote: post #121
zeroname wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Behaving like a decent human being isn't that hard. It can be quite hard to live up to everyone's standards of "decency". You just failed to do it. > I shouldn't respond to hyperbolic language with the like. Write that on the chalkboard one hundred times and maybe we'll let it slide. This time.

Yeah, I was called out on it, and I corrected myself. I wouldn't want to be part of a project that bans people who make an effort towards decency. The fact that standards differ and a consensus needs to be found for what constitutes decency is not an argument against it. What point are you trying to illustrate? Are you saying I shouldn't have been called out on it? Because I disagree. The fact was, I found the post I…

> What point are you trying to illustrate? Are you saying I shouldn't have been called out on it? Because I disagree. The fact was, I found the post I replied to annoying, and I replied in a tone that was stronger than it needed to be. It's a good thing that was called out. Next time I'll take a breather before replying and we'll have a more constructive exchange.

See, that's what I disagree with. To me that reads like almost pathological conflict-avoidance, or maybe it's the urge to not be a hypocrite. Either way, it's unnecessarily submissive and it's making you weak.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#148

Post by zeroname »

Certhas wrote: post #127
Sacho wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe they were trying to refute your initial point: > Because behaving like a decent human being is that hard, isn't it? By pointing out that you weren't able to live up to that standard even when trying to champion it. How hard will it be if you're in a heated argument with someone when your work is at stake?

Thanks. I don't know, this is the topic I get most heated about, I successfully lead pretty diverse teams, this definitely wouldn't happen to me in that context. After all discussion message boards like this are also a different context than a professional mailing list (and I strongly believe that context is important and not always appropriately taken into account). Just because something isn't that hard, doesn't me…

> Just because something isn't that hard, doesn't mean we don't slip up sometimes. So I'd stand by my assessment. It isn't that hard. I expect it of myself and my team. I still sometimes fail. Then a CoC, being called out on it, and given constructive criticism helps me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persona_(psychology)#Disintegr...

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#149

Post by notacoward »

adamrezich wrote: post #144
notacoward wrote: post #111

To me, it seems that the biggest lesson here has to do with cults of personality. No matter how awesome he is, Linus should never have been put up on such a high pedestal, given such a complete pass on everything he said, for so long. The longer it went on, the more he attracted both imitators and detractors. When he had a change of heart (and BTW I think the person who talked to him and finally made a difference was…

This is a highly revisionist version of events.

OK, so what did I get wrong? Please explain exactly which facts are incorrect, and what the correct version would be. Or is "revisionist" just a content-free dismissal of something other than your personal preferred narrative? Put up your version, and we'll see who the revisionist is.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#150

Post by pseudalopex »

aikah wrote: post #12
vesak wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rust, the programming language project, is one of the most inclusive projects there is, and they have a strong CoC. They seem to be doing fine. I don't think this is going to kill Linux. As for Linus's vacation/break/whatever, it's good that they're practicing giving the reins away. It is bound to happen at some future anyway. It's equally good that they're practicing behaving well, because it's quite possible that t…

> is one of the most inclusive projects there is There is absolutely no proof a CoC drives "inclusiveness", whatever it means, however there are multiple examples where codes of conducts were used to exclude contributors because they said something someone did not like in a setting completely unrelated to the project community. https://www.inc.com/sonya-mann/drupal-larry-garfield-gor.htm... CoC are political tools to…

There's a lot not to like about the Drupal situation, but the powers that be didn't remove Garfield "just because he shared a fetish with his wife". The Gorean subculture seems to be controversial even in BDSM circles. Some of what was used against him was dredged up from semi-private pages, but some of it was public. He seemed to argue against interpreting it as just role-play. When he was told to stop using Gorean mannerisms at Drupal events, he argued it discriminated against his culture.

Also, how is the Code of Conduct to blame? The official position seems to be that he didn't violate it.

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