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Linux – The beginning of the end?

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Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#111

Post by notacoward »

To me, it seems that the biggest lesson here has to do with cults of personality. No matter how awesome he is, Linus should never have been put up on such a high pedestal, given such a complete pass on everything he said, for so long. The longer it went on, the more he attracted both imitators and detractors. When he had a change of heart (and BTW I think the person who talked to him and finally made a difference was probably his daughter), neither of those two groups knew how to handle it gracefully. I've seen plenty of BS from both the Reddit/4chan troll army on one side (quite prevalent in this thread) and the anti-LF clique on the other (haven't seen them here yet) since then.

It's particularly interesting to contrast this with the relatively smooth process of the Python community. They adopted a code of conduct a while ago, and more recently Guido van Rossum - he for whom the term "Benevolent Dictator For Life" was invented - stepped down. There was some contention, but nothing like what we're seeing for Linux. I don't think it's because of the two projects' prominence. I think it's because Guido was never as polarizing as Linus. Again, the lesson is perhaps that nobody should be allowed to drive a project of that size toward such a cliff.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#112

Post by Klover »

xolorg wrote: post #91
nalllar wrote: post #73

/r/linux has been full of arguments about this recently. The moderation team claims that many of the people arguing against the CoC appear to be new to /r/linux. > We have noticed a large influx of accounts this past week that have never commented or posted in /r/Linux before. We have also seen a large number of accounts being created just to comment on these posts. ~ /u/Kruug From https://aa.reddit.com/r/linux/comme…

Throwaway accounts for normal contributors out of fear of backlash

On /r/linux of all places..?

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#113

Post by krylon »

agumonkey wrote: post #26
dimman wrote: post #14

I just want to reiterate what glandium wrote in a comment further down: "He didn't step down. He's taking a break. It's not the first time he takes a break either. Let's not be too alarmist."

Also I fear this situation is at a loss loss interpretation. If Linus doesn't take time off he's a sociopath, if he does, linux is dead... I do agree that it's somehow worrisome, but I tend to think that open discussion, and slowing down is a sign of health rather than the opposite. Time will tell.

Personally, I like to consider Linus taking time off to work on his social skills (whether it is really necessary or not) a sign of personal growth.

Time will tell how things will change in the Linux development world, but on a personal level, I think it is kind of admirable to face such an issue and be so open about it.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#114

Post by [deleted] »

CryptoRetired wrote: post #15

I am a gay man[0] who has contributed to a number of open source projects significantly. However I stopped when they implemented “Code of Conducts” that deny basic rights such as innocent until proven guilty and the right to face your accuser. (The popular one keeps accusers anonymous, thus the victim has no chance to defend themselves.) The truth is a maintainer can eject someone without a CoC. The purpose of CoC, a…

[deleted]

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#115

Post by Certhas »

s9w wrote: post #72
Certhas wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because behaving like a decent human being is that hard, isn't it? If a code of conduct hurts your feelings that much maybe you're just not cut out for collaborative work. I really wonder where the great fear that CoCs will be abused to shut down disagreement comes from. I am not a fan of policing language, but there just aren't many real examples of such abuse out there. Here is the actual list of examples from the…

These CoC's are weapons, disguised as a harmless decency. In the case of linux, it was yielded within a very timely manner: https://old.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/9hhnev/less...

If the CoC is used to bully people, then fight the bullying. It's a false dichotomy that we have to accept one type of bullies in order not to empower another type of bullies.

That said, your link also just peddles various conspiracy theories as "proven", and imagines a vast conspiracy of SJWs who specifically target powerful men. Which, BTW, should it exists, is clearly utterly ineffectual.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#116

Post by pjc50 »

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #109
dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the employees simply accepting such a change being made You know, in many places confronting management about the changes they introduce is not something that is generally practiced, and if you do that, especially in a semi-public way (even if that means Cc:-ing a few coworkers), you're simply at risk. This applies to small mom-and-pop shops, and equally applies to Google.

Which is a definite sign of a sick management culture and companies run by dictators, with no regard for the well-being of their employees.

Yes. It's unfortunately ubiquitous.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#117

Post by Certhas »

kaneua wrote: post #84
Certhas wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because behaving like a decent human being is that hard, isn't it? If a code of conduct hurts your feelings that much maybe you're just not cut out for collaborative work. I really wonder where the great fear that CoCs will be abused to shut down disagreement comes from. I am not a fan of policing language, but there just aren't many real examples of such abuse out there. Here is the actual list of examples from the…

The problem is not in the guys who want to misbehave and hate Code of Conduct because of that. Code of conduct and its vaguely written rules gives certain people a power to abuse. As we know from history, if there is a possibility that power can be abused, it will be.

We know from history that human collaboration, and the building of communities requires norms, compromise and ongoing discussion.

Fight the abusers, fight the bullies, but don't pretend that we can't have written down norms of decency because of the potential for abuse.

You presumably wouldn't accept blanket "potential for abuse/harm" arguments in other contexts either.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#119

Post by Certhas »

zeroname wrote: post #92
Certhas wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because behaving like a decent human being is that hard, isn't it? If a code of conduct hurts your feelings that much maybe you're just not cut out for collaborative work. I really wonder where the great fear that CoCs will be abused to shut down disagreement comes from. I am not a fan of policing language, but there just aren't many real examples of such abuse out there. Here is the actual list of examples from the…

> Because behaving like a decent human being is that hard, isn't it? If a code of conduct hurts your feelings that much maybe you're just not cut out for collaborative work. Who gets to decide what's "decent"? Do you not realize that what you just wrote can be considered [inappropriate], a [personal attack] and/or [trolling]? Do it once more, perhaps unwittingly, and you're a repeat offender. Three strikes and you ar…

I adopted a better tone in one of the replies higher up, but I do not believe I substantially misrepresent the argument (which is now flagged so I can't see it anymore).

Also the CoC explicitly gives a list of examples on what is decent/indecent behavior. It's a good one to me. Ultimately the answer is the same as with anything in a collaborative group: The group has to come to a consensus on what is and isn't decent. What we are experiencing right now is that this consensus is shifting.

Also, yes, there are examples of CoCs being used to bully people, or people making stupid decisions. These have usually been quickly reverted. [1]

But overall I have seen a lot more whinging reactions along the lines of "how dare you put your politics here!" than actual examples of abuses. And remember the information asymmetry here. Every abuse of a CoC is by definition public, and therefore also ultimately the community has a lot of options to correct such abuses. On the other hand, people who drop out because they find the atmosphere in a group toxic rarely go public. I've certainly dropped out of groups for that reason without mentioning it anywhere.

[1] Remember the "fork their repository" and dongle jokes debacle from a few years back? The outcome of that was that the accused was initially quickly fired (institutional overreaction to a ridiculous accusation), but ultimately got a new job immediately. The accuser on the other hand got a whole ton of abuse, lost her business, and last I checked was still out of a job. The idea that on balance the social power has shifted too far into the direction of the accusers is absurd to me. It just does not fit the world I observe. Every public accuser still get's harassed a lot. There are still plenty of incentives to not publicly accuse.

Re: Linux – The beginning of the end?

#120

Post by zeroname »

Certhas wrote: post #110
rndgermandude wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because behaving like a decent human being is that hard, isn't it? If a code of conduct hurts your feelings that much maybe you're just not cut out for collaborative work. This is a personal attack, very thinly veiled. If Hacker News had the same code of conduct, your account would have to be banned at worst.

That's fair, it's definitely a way to read this. I shouldn't respond to hyperbolic language with the like. I'll edit it. Edit: Too late, I can't edit anymore unfortunately. Let me rephrase: "Behaving like a decent human being isn't that hard. It's work that anyone who wants to work in a collaborative project can reasonably be expected to do. If this is objectionable to you, then maybe this collaboration isn't for you…

> Behaving like a decent human being isn't that hard.

It can be quite hard to live up to everyone's standards of "decency". You just failed to do it.

> I shouldn't respond to hyperbolic language with the like.

Write that on the chalkboard one hundred times and maybe we'll let it slide. This time.

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