Brain Drain Within the EU? • Hacker News Board

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#171

Post by enriquto » Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 1:51 PM UTC

dnautics wrote: post #68

arximboldi wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a Spaniard living in Germany... part of that very same problem. Anyways, "taxes and bureaucracy" is not the problem of the of the european south. In fact, taxes and bureaucracy are both way higher in Germany. The problems are more complex and historical. The EU economic crisis have been abused by right-wingers to argue that we have a too heavy social system. In fact, the demolition of the social system in the so…

> In fact, the demolition of the social system in the south is precisely preventing it from really leaving the crisis. Isn't it arguable though that the politicians are choosing to cut social welfare instead of choosing to cut cronyism and political favors? In which case it's actually the left-wing which is abusing the economic crisis, using those in poverty as pawns in a bigger game? > I want higher taxes if it come…

> > I want higher taxes if it comes, for example, with free university, like in Germany.

> Is that really fair? Those in poverty are less likely to be qualified to go to university, so you are essentially subsidizing the wealthy with policies like that.

You are right, and that's precisely the reason why rich people must pay much more taxes than the poor if you want to sustain a welfare state.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#172

Post by lou1306 » Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 2:00 PM UTC

ciguy wrote: post #18

I'm living in Italy at the moment, and I can watch the brain drain happening in real time. Every single university student I know here is looking to go to the UK or Germany when they graduate, almost without exception. I can't blame them at all, taxes are excessive and bureaucracy is excruciating here. Finding even a temporary job usually requires family connections, so the dumbest people with connections end up as m…

Taxes are not the only factor. Just an example: the average salary of an Italian worker with a university degree is just 30% more than that of one with a "diploma di terza media" (middle school degree/8th grade). [1] A degree just doesn't seem a valuable asset in the Italian job market.

[1]: https://www.corriere.it/economia/18_settembre_22/trent-anni-... (link in Italian)

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#173

Post by londons_explore » Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 2:08 PM UTC

What is the definition of scientist or engineer?

A lot of people with science or engineering degrees go on to careers which don't make use of what they have learned in their degree (for example finance), and instead use the degree on the CV as an indicator of 'probably a smart person'.

In countries without that effect, people might not see the need to get an engineering degree to get those same jobs, and instead prove they are a great candidate in another way.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#174

Post by m00dy » Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 2:32 PM UTC

whatupmd wrote: post #112

m00dy wrote: post #13

Turkey has now a great exodus ever in its history. Most of the educated Turks are now trying to abandon their beloved country. Recent stats indicate that top 4 countries they are going are UK, Germany, France, Netherlands [1]. If you see any of these precious guys, just say hi to them. They will speak to you. [1]: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42433668

Turkey is not in the EU.

too late to say that :)

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#175

Post by dijit » Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 2:44 PM UTC

sheepmullet wrote: post #143

dijit wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing with US salaries is that they're only higher in small circumstances, often what you'll find is someone is earning 100k USD and has an offer for 35-40k GBP will end up living a similar quality life. It sounds like it would be but that's not actually a pay cut. It comes from the fact that a lot of taxes are already given to the UK Govt, along with some strong protections for things like: private pensions, whi…

> earning 100k USD and has an offer for 35-40k GBP will end up living a similar quality life. That doesn’t sound right - $100k USD for a good software engineer is about right for second tier US cities where rent, taxes, and food are lower than in England.

Taxes really don’t vary much by city in the UK but rent can be considerably lower. London has the highest house prices but is not on par with NYC or SF; both of which being _considerably_ higher.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#176

Post by tomatocracy » Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 2:51 PM UTC

rleigh wrote: post #51

ciguy wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the beauricracies I've dealt with in Italy have nothing to do with the Euro or the EU. And yet they are horribly mis-managed and run by corrupt nespotic maniacs. It's a cultural problem, not a regulatory one. And thanks to brain drain the young people are leaving instead of affecting change.

And yet, these cultural problems have existed for many decades. While I'm certainly not claiming that the Euro and EU are the sole causes of today's problems, the introduction of the Euro is the more recent change, and I think a more likely contributor to the recent economic problems.

I'm not sure why you're being downvoted here - I think there is substantial truth to the idea that Italy had historically (under the Lira) run an economic model where it devalued its currency to offset poor total factor productivity growth. Within the Eurozone it is no longer able to do that but has not been able to improve productivity growth rates either.

This leaves lowering wages (at least in real terms) as the pretty much the only remaining way to offset low productivity growth in comparison with its industrial competitors. Unfortunately wages take much longer to adjust downwards because its very difficult to tell people to take a pay cut (over the long term the only way to do it on a large scale is to give low/no pay increases for seniority).

In the mean time, returns on investment fall and one suspects a partial downward spiral has developed as a result, where lower returns attract less capital and less capital investment leads to further poor productivity growth.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#177

Post by renjimen » Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 3:06 PM UTC

badpun wrote: post #165

renjimen wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tax in Denmark is also very high (I keep ~50% of my salary) but there are a huge influx of graduates from around Europe because there are plenty of jobs, it's a very fair society, it's so comfortable to live here, English is widely spoken, and if you stick it out long enough to have kids you'll reap some of your taxed kroner back! Salary is important, but there are many other factors (at least, among my non-Danish fr…

In Denmark, there's a special tax bracket for expats, where you pay only about 33% of your salary (instead of the standard 50+%), I think you're eglibigle to use it for up to five years.

Yeah, but you need to earn over ~600k DKK per year to qualify, IIRC. That’s around 80k Euros, which is what you might earn after 5-10 years in tech here.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#178

Post by ericd » Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 3:06 PM UTC

KSteffensen wrote: post #101

ericd wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the outside, the bureaucracy certainly seems like a big part of the problem. I've idly thought about moving to one of those countries and starting a company there because they are so nice . But one of the big things that kills those ideas are the horror stories about the horrible bureacracy, with non-deterministic results despite the same inputs. Starting a business is hard enough without spending time dealing w…

Come to Denmark. It's been rated in the top 5 world wide on the 'ease of doing business' since 2012 and ahead of the USA since 2015. [1] Pretty much all bureaucracy happens online and my experience as an individual, is that it's minimal. I've never tried running a business , so I can't say anything on the bureaucracy there. We don't have that nice Southern France climate, though. [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/…

Oh nice. Yeah, Denmark seems like a great place to live.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#179

Post by tomatocracy » Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 3:19 PM UTC

ggm wrote: post #81

Olivetti was a byword for industrial design in the sixties and seventies. Amazing styling. I know someone who did years of study in the wool business she said fellow interns would slaughter small children for a job in the Italian fashion industry. What goes around comes around. TEFL teachers get jobs in Italy...

Specialist manufacturing remains a very important part of the Italian economy - eg see this article about Beretta and the broader gun industry

https://www.politico.eu/interactive/in-pictures-italian-vill...

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#180

Post by sgt101 » Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 4:06 PM UTC

Mielly wrote: post #159

sgt101 wrote: post #106

I'm in the UK and recruiting junior (just postgrad) folks into AI applied research. Pm me if interested.

Good job asking for PMs when it's not possible, and with no contact email. Is the offer legit?

Oops - apologies. I forgot how HN works.

Mail me at simon.2.thompson@gmail.com - it's legit, it's in Suffolk, I'm not competing with Google or Facebook for wages but pay ahead of EPSRC and it is research - applied research, but still research.