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Brain Drain Within the EU?

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Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#101

Post by KSteffensen »

ericd wrote: post #39
arximboldi wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a Spaniard living in Germany... part of that very same problem. Anyways, "taxes and bureaucracy" is not the problem of the of the european south. In fact, taxes and bureaucracy are both way higher in Germany. The problems are more complex and historical. The EU economic crisis have been abused by right-wingers to argue that we have a too heavy social system. In fact, the demolition of the social system in the so…

From the outside, the bureaucracy certainly seems like a big part of the problem. I've idly thought about moving to one of those countries and starting a company there because they are so nice . But one of the big things that kills those ideas are the horror stories about the horrible bureacracy, with non-deterministic results despite the same inputs. Starting a business is hard enough without spending time dealing w…

Come to Denmark. It's been rated in the top 5 world wide on the 'ease of doing business' since 2012 and ahead of the USA since 2015. [1]

Pretty much all bureaucracy happens online and my experience as an individual, is that it's minimal. I've never tried running a business , so I can't say anything on the bureaucracy there.

We don't have that nice Southern France climate, though.

[1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ease_of_doing_business_index

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#102

Post by jcelerier »

Xixi wrote: post #84
ciguy wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tax rates on middle income earners (15k to 30k euros annually) are higher in Italy, at least based on my limited research. If you have data to back up your claim that they are higher in Germany I'd love to see it. Either way that's not actually the core of the issue. In Germany, you get decent public transportation, great education and healthcare for your tax money. In Italy these things range from tolerable but inef…

It can be hard to compare actual tax rates as you have to also account for all the payroll taxes. For instance in France for a Software Engineer you would expect about 40~45% payroll taxes [1], and you will still pay income taxes (somewhere between 20% and 40%) on what remains [2]. They go towards different budgets (Social Security and State), so it makes sense that they are collected separately. I don't know how it…

> They go towards different budgets (Social Security and State), so it makes sense that they are collected separately

until next january (finally!)

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#103

Post by woodpanel »

Xixi wrote: post #84
ciguy wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tax rates on middle income earners (15k to 30k euros annually) are higher in Italy, at least based on my limited research. If you have data to back up your claim that they are higher in Germany I'd love to see it. Either way that's not actually the core of the issue. In Germany, you get decent public transportation, great education and healthcare for your tax money. In Italy these things range from tolerable but inef…

It can be hard to compare actual tax rates as you have to also account for all the payroll taxes. For instance in France for a Software Engineer you would expect about 40~45% payroll taxes [1], and you will still pay income taxes (somewhere between 20% and 40%) on what remains [2]. They go towards different budgets (Social Security and State), so it makes sense that they are collected separately. I don't know how it…

(fictional, simplified) Example for a Software Engineer based in Germany [1]:

Gross income: 100.000 EUR / year [2]

-------------------------

TAXES

- Income tax (28.600 EUR)

- "solidarity premium" (2.300 EUR)

- church tax (1.600 € - cumpolsory until you leave the curch)

SOCIAL SECURITY (compulsory)

- unemployed insurance (1.200 EUR)

- pension insurance (7.300 EUR)

- health insurance (4.500 EUR)

- long term care (800 EUR)

-------------------------

Net income: 53.700 EUR

Add to that what is often called gross-gross-income: Hidden from your paycheck is that social security has to be paid by your employer as well (so in this case amounts to 113.080 EUR which makes for a combined rate of 53%) [3]

[1] Hypothetical young graduate from Italy/Spain/France: Unmarried, no children and catholic

[2] 100k is not the typical pay for freshly graduated-from-school devs in Germany, but an attainable income goal after some working years nonetheless

[3] some exemptions in that employer-part, its a bit less than the employee-part

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#104

Post by markatkinson »

tobbe2064 wrote: post #37

I doubt the situation in Spain, Italy and France can compare to the one in Romania, Poland or any of the other eastern members where it's not just the scientist and engineers but also the doctors, nurses teachers etc etc that have much better prospects abroad

You should see South Africa. It is more of a stampede. Everyone I know has either left or is trying. Literally ten out of the twelve friends I have are either in UK, Aus or US.

The ones still in ZA are clammering to get out.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#105

Post by borroka »

zhdc1 wrote: post #95
borroka wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The effect of these ERA (European Research Agency) initiatives is zero. EU likes to throw money at problems without following up; for an enlightening example one can look at the Marie Curie fellowship. Money thrown at researcher for 2 or 3 years of research in EU or outside of EU institutions with zero follow up at the end of the fellowship. As far as I know, the vast majority of MC fellows leave academia and researc…

Are they? A significant number of the major papers published over the last several years in the field I'm currently in have European co-authors. Having witnessed how EC funding works first hand, I'm willing to go to bat that it's a major reason behind the current renaissance in European university research. EC grants have regular reporting requirements with metrics and dissemination plans that are used to inform futu…

ERA grants vary widely in prestige, money, and requirements. It is correct that they hold back money that is freed after audits are carried out. However, as in the case of the MC fellowship, which can amount to > 300k over three years (so not beer money), you can write whatever you want in the reports and never hear back from your liaison officer.

"Defections" from academia to industry are prevalent and logical, since for one there are many more jobs there than in academia. However, MC fellowships are explicitly meant to support researchers and their research, train them, and then bring back knowledge and talent to EU research Institutions. Having a very high percentage of MC fellows leave academia after the end of the fellowship defeats their purpose and waste money and talent.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#107

Post by petre »

ericd wrote: post #39
arximboldi wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a Spaniard living in Germany... part of that very same problem. Anyways, "taxes and bureaucracy" is not the problem of the of the european south. In fact, taxes and bureaucracy are both way higher in Germany. The problems are more complex and historical. The EU economic crisis have been abused by right-wingers to argue that we have a too heavy social system. In fact, the demolition of the social system in the so…

From the outside, the bureaucracy certainly seems like a big part of the problem. I've idly thought about moving to one of those countries and starting a company there because they are so nice . But one of the big things that kills those ideas are the horror stories about the horrible bureacracy, with non-deterministic results despite the same inputs. Starting a business is hard enough without spending time dealing w…

The root of this problem is bureaucracy + nepotism/cronyism combined, as opposed to bureaucracy alone.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#108

Post by petre »

KSteffensen wrote: post #101
ericd wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the outside, the bureaucracy certainly seems like a big part of the problem. I've idly thought about moving to one of those countries and starting a company there because they are so nice . But one of the big things that kills those ideas are the horror stories about the horrible bureacracy, with non-deterministic results despite the same inputs. Starting a business is hard enough without spending time dealing w…

Come to Denmark. It's been rated in the top 5 world wide on the 'ease of doing business' since 2012 and ahead of the USA since 2015. [1] Pretty much all bureaucracy happens online and my experience as an individual, is that it's minimal. I've never tried running a business , so I can't say anything on the bureaucracy there. We don't have that nice Southern France climate, though. [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/…

Denmark has crazy high taxes. I know several cases of people moving to Switzerland and other EU countries to escape the tax burden.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#109

Post by gaius »

arximboldi wrote: post #27
ciguy wrote: post #18

I'm living in Italy at the moment, and I can watch the brain drain happening in real time. Every single university student I know here is looking to go to the UK or Germany when they graduate, almost without exception. I can't blame them at all, taxes are excessive and bureaucracy is excruciating here. Finding even a temporary job usually requires family connections, so the dumbest people with connections end up as m…

I am a Spaniard living in Germany... part of that very same problem. Anyways, "taxes and bureaucracy" is not the problem of the of the european south. In fact, taxes and bureaucracy are both way higher in Germany. The problems are more complex and historical. The EU economic crisis have been abused by right-wingers to argue that we have a too heavy social system. In fact, the demolition of the social system in the so…

In fact, taxes and bureaucracy are both way higher in Germany.

People generally don’t mind paying a premium in time or money if they feel what they get it worth it. Everyone knows this is true, witness people happily stand in line for hours to buy an expensive but desirable item or experience.

In Germany and Sweden and a few other countries taxes are high but you can look around you and see that it goes on high quality public services and infrastructure. The bureaucracy is time consuming but you know when you finally fill in that form, something will actually happen.

Countries where people complain about taxes and bureaucracy are countries where the tax money disappears into a Black hole and where paperwork is pointless.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#110

Post by pgeorgi »

dnautics wrote: post #68
arximboldi wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a Spaniard living in Germany... part of that very same problem. Anyways, "taxes and bureaucracy" is not the problem of the of the european south. In fact, taxes and bureaucracy are both way higher in Germany. The problems are more complex and historical. The EU economic crisis have been abused by right-wingers to argue that we have a too heavy social system. In fact, the demolition of the social system in the so…

> In fact, the demolition of the social system in the south is precisely preventing it from really leaving the crisis. Isn't it arguable though that the politicians are choosing to cut social welfare instead of choosing to cut cronyism and political favors? In which case it's actually the left-wing which is abusing the economic crisis, using those in poverty as pawns in a bigger game? > I want higher taxes if it come…

> Those in poverty are less likely to be qualified to go to university

More than 50% each year have the formal qualifications for university in Germany.

See the table on https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiturientenquote_und_Studiena...

Columns are: Year | qualified(West, East, Total) | of those: going to university | students getting a degree

If anything Germany needs to increase the value and prestige of vocational education again (which is, for the most part, also free, plus salary).

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