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Let Teenagers Sleep In

nytimes.com

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Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#101

Post by qrbLPHiKpiux »

unit91 wrote: post #100

> Anyone who talks about sleep as if it’s some kind of inconvenience and getting less of it is a virtue should be challenged. These people are dangerous. This statement was bizarrely totalitarian. I actually agree with the fundamental premise that many schools probably start too early. But to say those who take the other side are dangerous people who need to be challenged? Too far. Ironically, I think this Soviet-esq…

> Ironically, I think this Soviet-esque mentality that "people who disagree with idea X are dangerous" is dangerous!

Every, single social media platform, political show, talk show, no matter the side.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#102

Post by humanrebar »

qrbLPHiKpiux wrote: post #101
unit91 wrote: post #100

> Anyone who talks about sleep as if it’s some kind of inconvenience and getting less of it is a virtue should be challenged. These people are dangerous. This statement was bizarrely totalitarian. I actually agree with the fundamental premise that many schools probably start too early. But to say those who take the other side are dangerous people who need to be challenged? Too far. Ironically, I think this Soviet-esq…

> Ironically, I think this Soviet-esque mentality that "people who disagree with idea X are dangerous" is dangerous! Every, single social media platform, political show, talk show, no matter the side.

EconTalk is good about not being like this.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#103

Post by earthnail »

bosie wrote: post #10
earthnail wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German here. We have this kind of system, and it works extremely well for most professions that don’t require a master’s degree, and where the field doesn’t change too quickly. It is a mix of school and apprenticeship. Great, for example, for becoming a nurse, less great for programming since the field moves so fast. For higher education, we still have the old school university system. Students usually leave universi…

Not sure why it wouldn't work for "fast" changing fields like programming as well. The basics are the basics. Learn the basics at school and the day-to-day activities through the apprenticeship? Not sure what else would be better than the dual-system

It‘s just an observation. The apprenticeship system stems from the old guilds. There is no support yet for learning programming that way. It will take a while, the system evolves very slowly.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#104

Post by humanrebar »

emodendroket wrote: post #31

> Changing the operating hours of an institution so central to the community is far from easy. It requires strong leadership and adjustments by school bus companies and businesses offering services like child care and extracurricular clubs. Here's the elephant in the room. High schools start and end earlier with the idea that older kids can watch their siblings. I'd say a lack of public commitment to child care is al…

"public" meaning what. Both legally and socially, caring for children is mandatory.

We had a breakdown of extended family structure (aunts watching the kids for an hour or two) and neighborhoods (same but for elderly neighbors, sometimes compensated). Everyone knows child care is labor intensive. Nobody knows how to pay for it is all.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#105

Post by faitswulff »

escherplex wrote: post #98
andrepd wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't you simply making a baseless guess with nothing to back it up? Why would there be biological pressure to mate at night? I don't understand how you're so self assured (unless you read something on this which I haven't, in which case please share :)) If you don't, then I don't understand the purpose of phrases such as >The article misses the point almost to the point of absurdity. >I feel weird having to explain…

Oh, I don't know about that. In Ekrich's ' At Day's Close: Night in Times Past' [1] seems in pre-industrial age society the norm was 'bi-modal sleep'. First or "deep" or "dead" sleep, as it was sometimes called, often seems to have taken place shortly after sunset, or at least before 10 in the evening. After two to four hours of the night's deepest rest, people would wake up for an hour or two, then resume sleep for…

It'll likely be the nth time Matthew Walker is cited here, but in his interview with Joe Rogan, he mentions this is likely a societal trend rather than a biological need:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwaWilO_Pig&t=3294

> Joe Rogan: Yeah, I've heard this recently, that people - that you should have two sleeps. The idea of two sleeps.

> Matthew Walker: Yeah, it's actually a little different than the idea of two sleeps. So there was a time in the sort of Dickensian era where people would sleep for the first half of the night, maybe sort of 4 hours or so. Then they would wake up, they would socialize, they would eat, they would make love, then they would go back and have a second sleep. If you look at natural biological rhythms in the brain and the body, that doesn't really seem to be how we were designed. It certainly seems to be something that we did in society, but I think it's more of a societal trend than it was a biological edict. However, we do seem to have two sleep periods. Those tribes will often sleep about 6.5, 7 hours of sleep at night. And then especially in the summer they'll have that siesta like behavior in the afternoon. And all of us have that, sort of this - what's called the post-prandial dip in alertness, just means "after lunch" - and if I measure your brainwave activity with electrodes, I can see a drop in your physiological alertness somewhere between 2 to 4 pm in the afternoon [irrespective of diet].

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#106

Post by freddie_mercury »

escherplex wrote: post #98
andrepd wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't you simply making a baseless guess with nothing to back it up? Why would there be biological pressure to mate at night? I don't understand how you're so self assured (unless you read something on this which I haven't, in which case please share :)) If you don't, then I don't understand the purpose of phrases such as >The article misses the point almost to the point of absurdity. >I feel weird having to explain…

Oh, I don't know about that. In Ekrich's ' At Day's Close: Night in Times Past' [1] seems in pre-industrial age society the norm was 'bi-modal sleep'. First or "deep" or "dead" sleep, as it was sometimes called, often seems to have taken place shortly after sunset, or at least before 10 in the evening. After two to four hours of the night's deepest rest, people would wake up for an hour or two, then resume sleep for…

Note that not everyone is convinced by Ekritch.

http://www.textkit.com/greek-latin-forum/viewtopic.php?f=36&...

Or https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26480842

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#107

Post by ianai »

foldr wrote: post #82
digitailor wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say visibility, permission avoidance, the excitement, and I'm sure there's more. Just like now, why would it have changed? For what specific reasons? Obviously spring and summer would be easier. I don't think that's retrofitting; I think we're continuing it still and the lack of recognition of that is confusing me. I'm positive they figured out how to have sex in the day as well when possible. But nomadic daytime…

You couldn't do much of anything at night with stone-age lighting technology. Sneaking around at night would be more likely to net you a tryst with a nearby tree branch or ditch than an exciting sexual encounter.

You’re really off about that. Our night vision is actually pretty good, especially if you’ve used it for every night of your life. Fire’s clearly been with us for long enough to be a factor, in addition.

I’m against the hypothesis though, if only for the fact that energy levels peak shortly after waking up - “why we sleep” discusses this a little.

That book also suggests the variety of sleep patterns exists for evolutionary reasons. Ie we are social creatures. Having a multitude of waking/restful cycles in a group kept our ancestors protected with a nearly round the clock group of protectors - who evers sleep cycle woke them up when ever.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#108

Post by kart23 »

lordnacho wrote: post #53

This teenager sleep cycle thing is a bit of a revelation to me. I thought I just had bad habits, but when I was that age, I'd play games most of the evening, maybe do one or two bits of homework at 10om, and then possibly stay up to 1am with some essay that I'd procrastinate on for ages. I'd wake up at something like 7am and sleep on the train until I got into school, and then sleep after getting home at about 4pm fo…

Honestly, I disagree with you on the summer part. When I was in high school, summer gave everyone a much needed break, and gave us the opportunity to work a job, do internships, and prepare for the sat/act. Summer is a time where students dont need to feel bound by school and do what they want, which is important for learning to be an adult.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#109

Post by emodendroket »

humanrebar wrote: post #104
emodendroket wrote: post #31

> Changing the operating hours of an institution so central to the community is far from easy. It requires strong leadership and adjustments by school bus companies and businesses offering services like child care and extracurricular clubs. Here's the elephant in the room. High schools start and end earlier with the idea that older kids can watch their siblings. I'd say a lack of public commitment to child care is al…

"public" meaning what. Both legally and socially, caring for children is mandatory. We had a breakdown of extended family structure (aunts watching the kids for an hour or two) and neighborhoods (same but for elderly neighbors, sometimes compensated). Everyone knows child care is labor intensive. Nobody knows how to pay for it is all.

At government expense

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#110

Post by antidesitter »

notyourday wrote: post #97
Broken_Hippo wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Make attendance mandatory and create some comfortable spaces for in-between classes.

We all know that the same teenagers that want to sneak out of their houses at night to go on their escapades (typically 2:1 supervision) would totally follow the rules of mandatory attendance (40:1 supervision )

Then in what sense is QML’s proposal worse than the status quo?
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