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Let Teenagers Sleep In

nytimes.com

71–80 of 317 posts

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#71

> Changing the operating hours of an institution so central to the community is far from easy. It requires strong leadership and adjustments by school bus companies and businesses offering services like child care and extracurricular clubs. Here's the elephant in the room. High schools start and end earlier with the idea that older kids can watch their siblings. I'd say a lack of public commitment to child care is al…

> Here's the elephant in the room. High schools start and end earlier with the idea that older kids can watch their siblings.

That's an interesting postulation, but is it born out by societies where most families have a single child?

What were the child care options like at the time that the current school hours were developed (I'm guessing this is close to a century ago).

Do all relatively-civilised societies have the same attitude towards school hours and public commitment to child care?

If not, then trying to identify some correlations would be informative.

My gut feel is it's entirely unrelated to older siblings looking after younger ones -- partly because if both are at school at the same time, that problem is already solved.

I suspect the root cause is probably something more simple -- at the time school hours were decided, schools / education departments looked to how it was done elsewhere, be it neighbouring schools / states, or failing that, simply aligning the hours with what was commonly regarded as a 'good honest day's work'.

Clearly this would all have been a long time before anyone knew about, let alone considered, age-specific circadian rhythm variations.

Jesus, we know more than enough about it now -- the damage lack of sleep does to adults, and its profound importance through development especially in the teenage years -- and yet it'll be at least a decade before even the more progressive western societies shift teenage school hours forward by a few hours.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#72
post #23

I wonder if it'd just be easier for high schools to convert over to a college model: students are free to pick courses corresponding to their preferred times, and to leave and enter campus on will. Of course, there will be incentives to consider -- why would a high schooler attend their classes if they're not paying directly out of pocket? In contrast, a school district would try to maximize the attendance rate as th…

This seems like a great way to kill the public secondary school system. What percentage of kids do you estimate would stop going to class under this model?

Make attendance mandatory and create some comfortable spaces for in-between classes.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#74
Well, no one else has said it, so I guess I drew the short straw.

Teenagers are most likely wired for later nights because they have reached initial fertility. They will sneak off in the night to fool around, especially if they haven't had a child yet. At the risk of sounding patronizing, this is how babies are made. Adolescence is the age when women would first become pregnant, and the ancient's concept of marriage was probably not the same as ours. (There is evidence of monogamistic tendencies in humans for a long time but that isn't synonymous with marriage.)

Teenagers are biologically wired to want lots of sex and they tend to do it at night. I would put a lot of money on the fact that that hasn't changed in millennia.

Obviously, this is a critical aspect of the process that allows for the continuation of the human race. Humans didn't have the consistent ability to wait to reproduce until 30 as is common now. And probably not the desire too; I can't see career-building interfering.

The initial party must have ended pretty quickly. Poor ancient teeenagers.

(Edit: considering this speculative is reasonable and factually correct. But speculating there's been behavior change is currently more speculative. What reason do we have to think teens had daytime sex in ancient times and our behavior has changed? What about for mature adults? Never heard of an existing tribal culture that mostly has sex during the day, and that's how we get much of our anthropological evidence.

Humans tend to have sex at night, and the most fertile, desirious and energetic would be wired to spend more time at the time people have sex doing it: that would be selected for because of our primary biological directive. Is there a more logical evolutionary reason?)

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#75
post #71

> Changing the operating hours of an institution so central to the community is far from easy. It requires strong leadership and adjustments by school bus companies and businesses offering services like child care and extracurricular clubs. Here's the elephant in the room. High schools start and end earlier with the idea that older kids can watch their siblings. I'd say a lack of public commitment to child care is al…

> Here's the elephant in the room. High schools start and end earlier with the idea that older kids can watch their siblings. That's an interesting postulation, but is it born out by societies where most families have a single child? What were the child care options like at the time that the current school hours were developed (I'm guessing this is close to a century ago). Do all relatively-civilised societies have t…

> What were the child care options like at the time that the current school hours were developed (I'm guessing this is close to a century ago).

Unless you also consider how likely it is that Mom is working I'm not sure that's the way I'd do it, especially because school officials explicitly say they do what they are doing because of this issue, and also, why do you think the article mentioned childcare?

> My gut feel is it's entirely unrelated to older siblings looking after younger ones -- partly because if both are at school at the same time, that problem is already solved.

Think about this for a second. Mom and Dad work from 9:00-5:00 and then have an hour+ of commuting to do. All the schools get at or before 5:00. Is it more desirable for high schooler Joseph to get home before his 8-year-old sister, or the other way around?

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#76

Well, no one else has said it, so I guess I drew the short straw. Teenagers are most likely wired for later nights because they have reached initial fertility. They will sneak off in the night to fool around, especially if they haven't had a child yet. At the risk of sounding patronizing, this is how babies are made. Adolescence is the age when women would first become pregnant, and the ancient's concept of marriage…

[deleted]

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#77

Well, no one else has said it, so I guess I drew the short straw. Teenagers are most likely wired for later nights because they have reached initial fertility. They will sneak off in the night to fool around, especially if they haven't had a child yet. At the risk of sounding patronizing, this is how babies are made. Adolescence is the age when women would first become pregnant, and the ancient's concept of marriage…

I'm not sure this is true. Yes, adolescence is when childbearing ability and the associated hormonal incentives start, but where is this "sex must happen at night" component coming from? If anything, I would guess that's a modern phenomenon being retrofitted onto the past.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#78
post #23

I wonder if it'd just be easier for high schools to convert over to a college model: students are free to pick courses corresponding to their preferred times, and to leave and enter campus on will. Of course, there will be incentives to consider -- why would a high schooler attend their classes if they're not paying directly out of pocket? In contrast, a school district would try to maximize the attendance rate as th…

> students are free to pick courses corresponding to their preferred times, and to leave and enter campus on will.

I was doing this as a senior in HS in the 90s. Because I had been ahead since elementary school, by the time I was a senior in HS there were only a couple classes left I needed to take. I showed up late, left early and most days went to work.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#79
post #77

Well, no one else has said it, so I guess I drew the short straw. Teenagers are most likely wired for later nights because they have reached initial fertility. They will sneak off in the night to fool around, especially if they haven't had a child yet. At the risk of sounding patronizing, this is how babies are made. Adolescence is the age when women would first become pregnant, and the ancient's concept of marriage…

I'm not sure this is true. Yes, adolescence is when childbearing ability and the associated hormonal incentives start, but where is this "sex must happen at night" component coming from? If anything, I would guess that's a modern phenomenon being retrofitted onto the past.

I'd say visibility, permission avoidance, the excitement, and I'm sure there's more. Just like now, why would it have changed? For what specific reasons? Obviously spring and summer would be easier. I don't think that's retrofitting; I think we're continuing it still and the lack of recognition of that is confusing me.

I'm positive they figured out how to have sex in the day as well when possible. But nomadic daytime marching would reduce opportunity, and in a hunting culture it would be harder to separate a woman because of daily gender-disparate activities. In a predominantly gatherer culture, perhaps it was easier.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#80

Wouldn't the average teenager just stay up even longer? It's not like they are hardcoded to wake up at a certain clock time. I think it would make much more sense to change the content of school during those years to reflect the interests of students better. Let them take a break, do something practical, do projects, etc. instead of trying to cram facts into their heads. A lot of stuff I headed to learn when I was 13…

> Wouldn't the average teenager just stay up even longer? It's not like they are hardcoded to wake up at a certain clock time.

Additionally, what about the teens who do get up early? I feel like these studies are sometimes trying to explain something that really is simple to understand. Kids stay up later today because there is so much more keeping them awake. If they stay up late, then they need to sleep later to get the sleep they need.

Growing up, my friends and a I almost all got up with the sun. All the activities we wanted to do revolved around the daytime. As a consequence we were usually asleep not much later than 10pm.

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