Brain Drain Within the EU? • Hacker News Board

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#141

Post by renjimen » Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 10:39 AM UTC

louwrentius wrote: post #122

ciguy wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tax rates on middle income earners (15k to 30k euros annually) are higher in Italy, at least based on my limited research. If you have data to back up your claim that they are higher in Germany I'd love to see it. Either way that's not actually the core of the issue. In Germany, you get decent public transportation, great education and healthcare for your tax money. In Italy these things range from tolerable but inef…

Very interesting, it confirms what I suspected. A negative spiral caused by a fundamentally broken culture that Italy is unable to break away from. It's all about stuffing your pockets and those of your family. Because nobody can be trusted. You don't build for the future. You don't care about that now. It seems that there is a fundamental lack of trust amongst Italians. And if there's no trust, you can't build on ea…

I think a lot of mistrust comes down to an "us" vs. "them" mentality that forms in societies which are segmented or where resources are scarce. The most straightforward ways to remedy those situations are the redistribution of wealth or an increase in total wealth, respectively. But how do either of those happen in the country the size of Italy? Maybe you need a shock to the system to kick a sick society out of it's negative spiral, as you put it. The world wars acted as one for much of Europe. Maybe climate change can be the next one.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#142

Post by Eug894 » Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 10:52 AM UTC

x0rg wrote: post #136

louwrentius wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very interesting, it confirms what I suspected. A negative spiral caused by a fundamentally broken culture that Italy is unable to break away from. It's all about stuffing your pockets and those of your family. Because nobody can be trusted. You don't build for the future. You don't care about that now. It seems that there is a fundamental lack of trust amongst Italians. And if there's no trust, you can't build on ea…

I can tell you my story: I tried for years to stay in Italy and work there (it's my home country). As a software engineer I had to work 70 hours per week with no way to get a decent job for a salary between 20-30k euros (gross). When I severely burned out, I found the strength to leave the country and found a completely different work culture in Germany. This to say: I'm not sure Italians will ever turn it around, st…

  Take now... some hard-headed business man, who has no theories, but knows how to make money. Say to him:
  "Here is a little village; in ten years it will be a great city; in ten years the railroad will have taken
  the place of the stage coach, the electric light of the candle; it will abound with all the machinery and
  improvements that so enormously multiply the effective power of labor. Will in ten years, interest be any
  higher?" He will tell you, "No!" "Will the wages of the common labor be any higher...?" He will tell you,
  "No the wages of common labor will not be any higher..." "What, then, will be higher?" "Rent, the
  value of land. Go, get yourself a piece of ground, and hold possession." And if, under such circumstances, you
  take his advice, you need do nothing more. You may sit down and smoke your pipe; you may lie around like 
  the lazzaroni of Naples or the leperos of Mexico; you may go up in a balloon or down a hole in the ground;
  and without doing one stroke of work, without adding one iota of wealth to the community, in ten years you 
  will be rich! In the new city you may have a luxurious mansion, but among its public buildings will be 
  an almshouse.

I would add: "Or get some intellectual property everyone must buy." /s

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#143

Post by sheepmullet » Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 10:54 AM UTC

dijit wrote: post #34

pageald wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there a lot of American expat software engineers in the UK? For most people, it would be a steep pay cut to move from the US to anywhere in the EU.

The thing with US salaries is that they're only higher in small circumstances, often what you'll find is someone is earning 100k USD and has an offer for 35-40k GBP will end up living a similar quality life. It sounds like it would be but that's not actually a pay cut. It comes from the fact that a lot of taxes are already given to the UK Govt, along with some strong protections for things like: private pensions, whi…

> earning 100k USD and has an offer for 35-40k GBP will end up living a similar quality life.

That doesn’t sound right - $100k USD for a good software engineer is about right for second tier US cities where rent, taxes, and food are lower than in England.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#144

Post by renjimen » Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 10:55 AM UTC

Eug894 wrote: post #139

renjimen wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tax in Denmark is also very high (I keep ~50% of my salary) but there are a huge influx of graduates from around Europe because there are plenty of jobs, it's a very fair society, it's so comfortable to live here, English is widely spoken, and if you stick it out long enough to have kids you'll reap some of your taxed kroner back! Salary is important, but there are many other factors (at least, among my non-Danish fr…

What is your estimate on how many of the Danish own land? Do people anticipate price of it growing faster than salaries in the near future?

Most Danes buy property in their 20s and 30s, usually with help from their parents. It helps that mortgage rates are still very low too. There's not as much of a renting culture as there is in say, Germany.

In the Copenhagen area property prices are already growing faster than salaries. Apartments in my relatively central area have gone up by over 20% in the last 3 years. I'm not sure what the situation is like in smaller cities across Denmark, but probably not as severe. It's widely recognised that Copenhagen has the lion's share of the best jobs in the country, but there are efforts to remedy that (not least the government's rash decision to move many important offices to other parts of the country).

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#145

Post by expertentipp » Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 10:58 AM UTC

woodpanel wrote: post #103

Xixi wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be hard to compare actual tax rates as you have to also account for all the payroll taxes. For instance in France for a Software Engineer you would expect about 40~45% payroll taxes [1], and you will still pay income taxes (somewhere between 20% and 40%) on what remains [2]. They go towards different budgets (Social Security and State), so it makes sense that they are collected separately. I don't know how it…

(fictional, simplified) Example for a Software Engineer based in Germany [1]: Gross income: 100.000 EUR / year [2] ------------------------- TAXES - Income tax (28.600 EUR) - "solidarity premium" (2.300 EUR) - church tax (1.600 € - cumpolsory until you leave the curch) SOCIAL SECURITY (compulsory) - unemployed insurance (1.200 EUR) - pension insurance (7.300 EUR) - health insurance (4.500 EUR) - long term care (800 E…

In most Central European countries the total salary cost/net salary easily approaches or even exceedes 200% for any software-related profession. Employment contract is a racket contribution-wise and what’s worse, there is no better option (please don’t suggest contracting or freelancing).

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#146

Post by expathacker » Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 11:16 AM UTC

woodpanel wrote: post #103

Xixi wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be hard to compare actual tax rates as you have to also account for all the payroll taxes. For instance in France for a Software Engineer you would expect about 40~45% payroll taxes [1], and you will still pay income taxes (somewhere between 20% and 40%) on what remains [2]. They go towards different budgets (Social Security and State), so it makes sense that they are collected separately. I don't know how it…

(fictional, simplified) Example for a Software Engineer based in Germany [1]: Gross income: 100.000 EUR / year [2] ------------------------- TAXES - Income tax (28.600 EUR) - "solidarity premium" (2.300 EUR) - church tax (1.600 € - cumpolsory until you leave the curch) SOCIAL SECURITY (compulsory) - unemployed insurance (1.200 EUR) - pension insurance (7.300 EUR) - health insurance (4.500 EUR) - long term care (800 E…

Tangenitally, I'm curious about the unemployment insurance. What does it cover? In the United States, unemployment insurance is compulsory for employers, but it only covers two specific cases: laid-off due to inability to pay salary, laid-off due to your skills no longer being required. Quitting / being fired / getting sick puts you out on the street. Is it the same in Europe?

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#147

Post by Eug894 » Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 11:20 AM UTC

renjimen wrote: post #144

Eug894 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is your estimate on how many of the Danish own land? Do people anticipate price of it growing faster than salaries in the near future?

Most Danes buy property in their 20s and 30s, usually with help from their parents. It helps that mortgage rates are still very low too. There's not as much of a renting culture as there is in say, Germany. In the Copenhagen area property prices are already growing faster than salaries. Apartments in my relatively central area have gone up by over 20% in the last 3 years. I'm not sure what the situation is like in sm…

  In the Copenhagen area property prices are already growing faster than salaries.

Yeah, that's what worries me - landowners having earned enough wealth will start to use their land for other purposes. Or there will be other wealthy people who will order such a reassignment. Thus increasing prices faster than technology can increase supply. It seems unlikely, but who knows for sure? Thanks for the info!

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#148

Post by expertentipp » Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 11:24 AM UTC

expathacker wrote: post #146

woodpanel wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(fictional, simplified) Example for a Software Engineer based in Germany [1]: Gross income: 100.000 EUR / year [2] ------------------------- TAXES - Income tax (28.600 EUR) - "solidarity premium" (2.300 EUR) - church tax (1.600 € - cumpolsory until you leave the curch) SOCIAL SECURITY (compulsory) - unemployed insurance (1.200 EUR) - pension insurance (7.300 EUR) - health insurance (4.500 EUR) - long term care (800 E…

Tangenitally, I'm curious about the unemployment insurance. What does it cover? In the United States, unemployment insurance is compulsory for employers, but it only covers two specific cases: laid-off due to inability to pay salary, laid-off due to your skills no longer being required. Quitting / being fired / getting sick puts you out on the street. Is it the same in Europe?

Not any better in the EU. One’s unemployment insurance is basically void if the employment took place in one EU country and then one immediately relocated to another EU country. Theoretically it’s covered, but in practice the local formal requirements are too stringent and contradicting.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#149

Post by repolfx » Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 11:28 AM UTC

ben_w wrote: post #66

rleigh wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely a major factor for problems in both Italy and Spain is the crippling effect of the Euro and EU regulation. If the Euro were scrapped, it could make the economies much more competitive. Just look at how the drop in the pound over the last two years boosted British industry and exports. That's not an option for countries shackled to the Euro.

British industry growth has become unstable rather than higher since the pound collapsed. British exports have mainly gone up because gold (which doesn’t come from the UK, it just happened to be stored there) is being moved out of the country in economically significant quantities. https://www.ft.com/content/0407854e-f9d0-11e6-9516-2d969e0d3... This isn’t to say the Euro is brilliant or not, I don’t have the knowledg…

The pound hasn't collapsed, that's why. Look at a graph of GBPUSD. The pound spent all of 2017 increasing in value, and you'll see that by the start of 2018 the pound had erased the entire drop that followed the EU referendum - it was back to the value it was at the start of 2016.

The fluctuations since then have been within the same sort of range as is normal for such a currency: the fall since April is of about the same size as the falls in July 2011, Summer-Winter 2014 etc.

The narrative that the UK economy or currency is collapsing is trivially disproven by simply looking at a graph.

With respect to gold, the story you linked to says it's being moved by Chinese investors as a hedge against problems with their own currency. It's unrelated to the politics of the EU.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#150

Post by noisymemories » Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 11:30 AM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #138

NicoJuicy wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it really about taxes? Most taxes are in Belgium where I live and I don't think there's a brain drain

I'm guessing it's less just the high taxes, and more that people feel like they're not getting much for their high taxes. A common theme in any American article talking about the Nordic model, for example, is quotes from people saying, "yeah taxes are high, but at least the government provides a lot of useful stuff from that."

Precisely. Our taxation system feels closer to a middle age poll tax than anything else. Upon collection is nearly impossible to get a precise idea where or what they're doing with that money.

I wouldn't be surprised if more than 20% of that gets funneled to offshore accounts - Current investigations just found that the current ruling party "North League" owes more than 49 million euros in "missing funds".

Their answer was "well, We'll give them back errr...eventually. Oh Look there! Illegal Immigrants! starts running"

Previous left/right/centre governments weren't any better.

It's repulsive, and I don't see any hope for change. I'm rather left-leaning, I'm aware that state-managed funds aren't where you should look for efficiency, but the current situation is going south really, really fast.