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Brain Drain Within the EU?

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Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#61

Post by volkl48 »

village-idiot wrote: post #54
dijit wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing with US salaries is that they're only higher in small circumstances, often what you'll find is someone is earning 100k USD and has an offer for 35-40k GBP will end up living a similar quality life. It sounds like it would be but that's not actually a pay cut. It comes from the fact that a lot of taxes are already given to the UK Govt, along with some strong protections for things like: private pensions, whi…

Also depends on your health. The massive difference in health care systems between those countries will have a big impact on your CoL.

Not so much at the high end (dev/engineer), though. Those $150k US salaries are also going to include generous health plans with little cost to the employee at most employers.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#62

Post by bobthechef »

pageald wrote: post #28
village-idiot wrote: post #3

Random thought: the UK has the advantage of speaking English. First, that makes it easier for them to pull in other Europeans, since english is commonly the second language of most other Europeans. Second they can also pull in American and Canadian expats much easier than anyone else in Europe. Germany is more interesting to me. German is not exactly the worlds most common first or second language. So this is more ev…

Are there a lot of American expat software engineers in the UK? For most people, it would be a steep pay cut to move from the US to anywhere in the EU.

A general point: it's important to adjust one's interpretation of salary by factoring in things like cost of living. Software engineers in New York and San Francisco make more money on average than those in other parts of the world, but it's very expensive to live, especially at a respectable standard of living, in both of these cities, dramatically offsetting the jump in salary. London is, of course, also very expensive, so I imagine my comment may not be quite as relevant.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#63

Post by jotm »

iaskwhy wrote: post #35
rndgermandude wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German is the most common language in the EU after English, and the top first language even before English.

Sorry, it's not your fault but I found this funny because, of course German is the top first language in the EU, it's EU's most populous country, by far. Romanian is the 7th and Dutch the 8th and so on, pretty much every country has its own national language, with only a few exceptions.

Don't forget Austria, those sneaky bastards also speak German, adding to the numbers :D

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#64

Post by bobthechef »

iaskwhy wrote: post #35
rndgermandude wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German is the most common language in the EU after English, and the top first language even before English.

Sorry, it's not your fault but I found this funny because, of course German is the top first language in the EU, it's EU's most populous country, by far. Romanian is the 7th and Dutch the 8th and so on, pretty much every country has its own national language, with only a few exceptions.

But there are more non-native English speakers than non-native German speakers. Everyone is learning English, German far less so.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#65

Post by njarboe »

Anderkent wrote: post #56
rleigh wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, these cultural problems have existed for many decades. While I'm certainly not claiming that the Euro and EU are the sole causes of today's problems, the introduction of the Euro is the more recent change, and I think a more likely contributor to the recent economic problems.

Well, introduction of open borders is also fairly recent, don't you think that might have more impact on the within-eu migration than shared currency?

Both are really important. Single causes to explain gradual changes in state of complex adaptive systems are rarely correct. Listing your top ten reasons in order or with percent importance attached, would be a more insightful dialogue.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#66

Post by ben_w »

rleigh wrote: post #30
arximboldi wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a Spaniard living in Germany... part of that very same problem. Anyways, "taxes and bureaucracy" is not the problem of the of the european south. In fact, taxes and bureaucracy are both way higher in Germany. The problems are more complex and historical. The EU economic crisis have been abused by right-wingers to argue that we have a too heavy social system. In fact, the demolition of the social system in the so…

Surely a major factor for problems in both Italy and Spain is the crippling effect of the Euro and EU regulation. If the Euro were scrapped, it could make the economies much more competitive. Just look at how the drop in the pound over the last two years boosted British industry and exports. That's not an option for countries shackled to the Euro.

British industry growth has become unstable rather than higher since the pound collapsed.

British exports have mainly gone up because gold (which doesn’t come from the UK, it just happened to be stored there) is being moved out of the country in economically significant quantities.

https://www.ft.com/content/0407854e-f9d0-11e6-9516-2d969e0d3...

This isn’t to say the Euro is brilliant or not, I don’t have the knowledge necessary to argue that topic pro or con.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#67

Post by bobthechef »

kmlx wrote: post #21
borroka wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The effect of these ERA (European Research Agency) initiatives is zero. EU likes to throw money at problems without following up; for an enlightening example one can look at the Marie Curie fellowship. Money thrown at researcher for 2 or 3 years of research in EU or outside of EU institutions with zero follow up at the end of the fellowship. As far as I know, the vast majority of MC fellows leave academia and researc…

It's the same in other fields. Eastern European countries currently suffer from a plague of politicians and special interests that funnel EU funds straight to either their own personal bank accounts or to close friends and companies. [0] [1] [0] https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/hungary-... [1] https://ec.europa.eu/anti-fraud/sites/antifraud/files/olaf_r...

Or Western companies. For instance, whenever a country in Central and Eastern Europe (CEE) defies the EU, the affiliated pro-federalist media outlets immediately start to claim how these countries are large beneficiaries of EU funds (read: ungrateful). The funny thing is that the economies of these countries are heavily colonized by Western companies and conglomerates that often siphon EU funds back into Western hands. Furthermore, the legal systems in those countries are still reeling from Soviet control and need a serious overhaul. Western companies gladly exploit loopholes and make corrupt deals with post-communist elites to, for example, get at funds or avoid paying enormous amounts of taxes.

Certainly, CEE countries have improved a great deal since '89, but the West really doesn't appreciate how traumatic WWII was for these countries, how disruptive the Nazis and the Soviets were, how half a century of Soviet domination scarred them, and how much work needs to be done to undo the damage. It's little wonder Western elites worry when these countries try to address these issues. They (the Western elites) are the beneficiaries of these exploitative practices that gladly employ in what Piketty calls "foreign-owned countries".

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#68

Post by dnautics »

arximboldi wrote: post #27
ciguy wrote: post #18

I'm living in Italy at the moment, and I can watch the brain drain happening in real time. Every single university student I know here is looking to go to the UK or Germany when they graduate, almost without exception. I can't blame them at all, taxes are excessive and bureaucracy is excruciating here. Finding even a temporary job usually requires family connections, so the dumbest people with connections end up as m…

I am a Spaniard living in Germany... part of that very same problem. Anyways, "taxes and bureaucracy" is not the problem of the of the european south. In fact, taxes and bureaucracy are both way higher in Germany. The problems are more complex and historical. The EU economic crisis have been abused by right-wingers to argue that we have a too heavy social system. In fact, the demolition of the social system in the so…

> In fact, the demolition of the social system in the south is precisely preventing it from really leaving the crisis.

Isn't it arguable though that the politicians are choosing to cut social welfare instead of choosing to cut cronyism and political favors? In which case it's actually the left-wing which is abusing the economic crisis, using those in poverty as pawns in a bigger game?

> I want higher taxes if it comes, for example, with free university, like in Germany.

Is that really fair? Those in poverty are less likely to be qualified to go to university, so you are essentially subsidizing the wealthy with policies like that.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#69

Post by ben_w »

rleigh wrote: post #59
Anderkent wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, introduction of open borders is also fairly recent, don't you think that might have more impact on the within-eu migration than shared currency?

I'm sure that both are factors. However, it was fairly easy to work in different European countries before the EU or the EEC existed, it just needed some paperwork filling out, so I'm inclined to think this is a lesser factor. There was migration for work between western European countries such as UK/Germany/France/Italy for well over a century. It has certainly increased in recent decades, but it's not at all new. I…

I’ve just moved from the UK to Germany. This was primarily enabled by Google translate and online courses like Duolingo, and by websites making the necessary tasks known and understandable.

The Euro is icing on the cake, not the… I guess the metaphor would imply “the main course”?

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#70

Post by ericd »

volkl48 wrote: post #61
village-idiot wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also depends on your health. The massive difference in health care systems between those countries will have a big impact on your CoL.

Not so much at the high end (dev/engineer), though. Those $150k US salaries are also going to include generous health plans with little cost to the employee at most employers.

Having long term health problems is highly correlated with not being able to work, though, and losing insurance coverage. This is one of the things that surprises many people who think they're well covered with insurance, and then become ill, and it's one of the most insane things about our system of bundling work and health insurance.
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