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Brain Drain Within the EU?

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Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#111

Post by JPLeRouzic »

programLyrique wrote: post #9

It would be interesting to see the percentages for scientists and researchers independently. For France, for instance, researchers' wages are not very high. A lecturer typically starts with about 2115 euros per month before taxes typically for instance. On the contrary, I think that the salary of engineers is competitive with the ones in the UK and Germany.

> A lecturer typically starts with about 2115 euros per month

Indeed this a low wage considering the cost of life, but two third of French earn less than that [0].

A few days ago a statistic about middle class in France was considering 1200 euros as representative of French middle class, even if this is roughly the legal minimum wage.

[0] https://www.inegalites.fr/Salaire-etes-vous-riche-ou-pauvre

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#112

Post by whatupmd »

m00dy wrote: post #13

Turkey has now a great exodus ever in its history. Most of the educated Turks are now trying to abandon their beloved country. Recent stats indicate that top 4 countries they are going are UK, Germany, France, Netherlands [1]. If you see any of these precious guys, just say hi to them. They will speak to you. [1]: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42433668

Turkey is not in the EU.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#113

Post by jayalpha »

egeozcan wrote: post #16
village-idiot wrote: post #3

Random thought: the UK has the advantage of speaking English. First, that makes it easier for them to pull in other Europeans, since english is commonly the second language of most other Europeans. Second they can also pull in American and Canadian expats much easier than anyone else in Europe. Germany is more interesting to me. German is not exactly the worlds most common first or second language. So this is more ev…

Contrary to what most people believe, I see that native English speakers can learn German rather easily (with a pretty distinct accent, which I really like :)). Your point stands though, as they usually don't know this before they actually start learning, so they must have other reasons.

"Contrary to what most people believe, I see that native English speakers can learn German rather easily"

I doubt that. While English is part of the West Germanic languages, there are huge grammatical differences. I assume it would be much easier for a Polish or Russian Person to learn German than for an English.

The sentence "Man bites Dog" and "Dog bites Man" has a different meaning in English, due to to position of the noun. In German, both is possible.

"Der Hund beisst den Mann" and

"Den Mann beisst der Hund" has the same meaning.

Declension makes the word order in German very flexible.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#115

Post by jondubois »

enlightenedfool wrote: post #77
ciguy wrote: post #18

I'm living in Italy at the moment, and I can watch the brain drain happening in real time. Every single university student I know here is looking to go to the UK or Germany when they graduate, almost without exception. I can't blame them at all, taxes are excessive and bureaucracy is excruciating here. Finding even a temporary job usually requires family connections, so the dumbest people with connections end up as m…

"dumbest people with connections end up as managers while the smartest get put into lower positions" That's the case everywhere, but the other side of the argument is that the managers are smart to use those connections for their careers.

Most people are constantly trying to use their connections to advance their careers - That's not difficult at all.

The hard part is making those connections.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#116

Post by zeroc8 »

village-idiot wrote: post #87
jotm wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget Austria, those sneaky bastards also speak German, adding to the numbers :D

As an American who learned German, that feels more like a technicality than a reality.

It's the common language that divides us ;) (I'm Austrian)

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#117

Post by [deleted] »

woodpanel wrote: post #103
Xixi wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be hard to compare actual tax rates as you have to also account for all the payroll taxes. For instance in France for a Software Engineer you would expect about 40~45% payroll taxes [1], and you will still pay income taxes (somewhere between 20% and 40%) on what remains [2]. They go towards different budgets (Social Security and State), so it makes sense that they are collected separately. I don't know how it…

(fictional, simplified) Example for a Software Engineer based in Germany [1]: Gross income: 100.000 EUR / year [2] ------------------------- TAXES - Income tax (28.600 EUR) - "solidarity premium" (2.300 EUR) - church tax (1.600 € - cumpolsory until you leave the curch) SOCIAL SECURITY (compulsory) - unemployed insurance (1.200 EUR) - pension insurance (7.300 EUR) - health insurance (4.500 EUR) - long term care (800 E…

[deleted]

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#118

Post by tormeh »

markatkinson wrote: post #104
tobbe2064 wrote: post #37

I doubt the situation in Spain, Italy and France can compare to the one in Romania, Poland or any of the other eastern members where it's not just the scientist and engineers but also the doctors, nurses teachers etc etc that have much better prospects abroad

You should see South Africa. It is more of a stampede. Everyone I know has either left or is trying. Literally ten out of the twelve friends I have are either in UK, Aus or US. The ones still in ZA are clammering to get out.

Have heard similar anecdotes from Iranians. Those mostly go to the US, though.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#119

Post by [deleted] »

gerdesj wrote: post #74
ciguy wrote: post #18

I'm living in Italy at the moment, and I can watch the brain drain happening in real time. Every single university student I know here is looking to go to the UK or Germany when they graduate, almost without exception. I can't blame them at all, taxes are excessive and bureaucracy is excruciating here. Finding even a temporary job usually requires family connections, so the dumbest people with connections end up as m…

I'm living in Italy at the moment, and I can watch the brain drain happening in real time. Every single university student I know here is looking to go to the UK or Germany when they graduate, almost without exception. If you allow your gaze to de-focus slightly, you could think of Italy as contributing towards the EU as a whole. If it helps, just down the road from me is a helicopter manufacturer that used to be kno…

[deleted]

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#120

Post by angarg12 »

arximboldi wrote: post #27
ciguy wrote: post #18

I'm living in Italy at the moment, and I can watch the brain drain happening in real time. Every single university student I know here is looking to go to the UK or Germany when they graduate, almost without exception. I can't blame them at all, taxes are excessive and bureaucracy is excruciating here. Finding even a temporary job usually requires family connections, so the dumbest people with connections end up as m…

I am a Spaniard living in Germany... part of that very same problem. Anyways, "taxes and bureaucracy" is not the problem of the of the european south. In fact, taxes and bureaucracy are both way higher in Germany. The problems are more complex and historical. The EU economic crisis have been abused by right-wingers to argue that we have a too heavy social system. In fact, the demolition of the social system in the so…

I'm from Spain and I have lived in Germany and now UK. What surprises me from these numbers is that the share of Spaniards abroad isn't higher.

My reason to leave was my career. In Spain most things work via connections and meritocracy hardly exists. I went from a salary below the median and a dead end job to a top paying job with unlimited growth potential.

I love Spain as a holiday destination, but I will never go back to live there. I agree that the problem is way deeper and more culturally involved than tax rates and bureaucracy.

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