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Don't learn Dvorak

dudzik.co

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Re: Don't learn Dvorak

#91

Post by isodude »

klodolph wrote: post #28

Before I switched to Dvorak, I had RSI problems. I still have RSI problems, but they are much less severe and much less frequent. The difference is stark. It makes a huge difference in quality of life for me. I have also tried alternative keyboards, like the Kinesis and the Ergodox, but switching to Dvorak seems to have had the largest impact. > Learning a new layout is one of the most frustrating experiences that I’…

I have never (luckily) had any problems with RSI, but have taken the time to learn layouts which hide special keys under the home row, accesible with combination of the Alt gr key. Have you had any experience with that and how it impacts on RSI? From my perspective it should do at least an impact since I rarely move from home row even if I do a lot of programming.

Re: Don't learn Dvorak

#92

Post by isodude »

dnautics wrote: post #38
klodolph wrote: post #28

Before I switched to Dvorak, I had RSI problems. I still have RSI problems, but they are much less severe and much less frequent. The difference is stark. It makes a huge difference in quality of life for me. I have also tried alternative keyboards, like the Kinesis and the Ergodox, but switching to Dvorak seems to have had the largest impact. > Learning a new layout is one of the most frustrating experiences that I’…

Interesting, I found learning Dvorak was way more frustrating than learning qwerty... Of course I learned qwerty at age five and Dvorak at age 19... And usually unlearning things is harder.

My experience is that learning dvorak when you can touch type qwerty is pain since every key you are looking for will be hidden under your other hand. If I were to issue a recommendation to someone in my situation back then I would say: Use only one hand for the first weeks!

Re: Don't learn Dvorak

#93

Post by dudzik »

comboy wrote: post #90
Yen wrote: post #88

I use dvorak as my daily driver. I'm still able to use qwerty, and while my typing speed is not as fast, it's still adequately usable. However, an extended typing session in qwerty just feels...weird. I feel vaguely unbalanced, and I'm more likely to get off by one key left or right (while touch-typing). It also tends to put me in four-finger typing mode, rather than eight-finger. Can any users of Colemak / other lay…

I also retained ability to type on qwerty even though I've been using dvorak exclusively for the last 10+ years (I need to write a few commands on qwerty a few times a year). I think that's actually the first time I hear about somebody who "forgot" how to type on qwerty after switching to dvorak/colemak. I wonder how long has he been using qwerty before switching.

I've been able to touch typing in QWERTY for around a year before making the switch to Dvorak. I haven't been using QWERTY for some time after the switch so that might affect it as well. It might be interesting to see if I could get back into QWERTY and still retain Dvorak as I used it for a longer period.

Re: Don't learn Dvorak

#94

Post by matt_m »

kingnothing wrote: post #56
klodolph wrote: post #28

Before I switched to Dvorak, I had RSI problems. I still have RSI problems, but they are much less severe and much less frequent. The difference is stark. It makes a huge difference in quality of life for me. I have also tried alternative keyboards, like the Kinesis and the Ergodox, but switching to Dvorak seems to have had the largest impact. > Learning a new layout is one of the most frustrating experiences that I’…

What's your take on the Kinesis Advantage vs Ergodox EZ? I'm currently debating between the two.

Maybe you've already ruled it out, but it might also be worth considering the Kinesis Freestyle line too. I've been using one for many years now after trying it at work and have been pretty happy with it. Since the layout isn't too different it's also easy to switch back and forth with regular keyboards. They have new bluetooth/mechanical versions now too.

I use it tented up in the middle at about 30 degrees with an accessory. The setup isn't very portable though.

Re: Don't learn Dvorak

#95

Post by isodude »

beefheart wrote: post #87

I learned to type blindly informally on QWERTY and I use only my index fingers and my pinkies. I actually move my arms a little when typing. I'm reasonably fast, certainly fast enough for anything I do. I have never had any problem with wrist stain and just from trying out "proper touch typing", I feel like my way of typing is far less straining and "more natural". That could just be confirmation bias of course. SURV…

> I have never had any problem with wrist stain and just from trying out "proper touch typing", I feel like my way of typing is far less straining and "more natural". That could just be confirmation bias of course.

It will never be a problem most likely until your situation changes. That change could be anything from a new keyboard to a new sport your trying out that increases the stress on wrists and arms.

I am not an expert in any way, but as long as your elbows rest on the desk and your wrists are straight, you should be fine.

> Who else has learned typing similarly to me and what have been your experiences?

I learned informally but started to use most fingers. Later on I learned two different dvorak layouts, switched back to qwerty for a couple of years, switched back to dvorak again. I feel that I have some weird ways to type sometimes, but I only had wrist problems once and that was when I switched keyboards and skipped the wrist rest (quite high keyboard). I've always found that the strain is in the elbows and how well you rest your wrists. Not depending on touch typing/layout etc.

Re: Don't learn Dvorak

#96

Post by finnthehuman »

>Learning a new layout is one of the most frustrating experiences that I’ve had so far. Muscle memory built up from touch typing on a QWERTY Layout for years meant that during the learning phase, I would constantly press the wrong key. My brain didn’t like that feeling — this is what I imagine a stroke victim must feel when relearning a basic skill.

Learning a new skill as an adult can be be like this. If you would have given up after hitting the wall on something as minor as learning Dvorak, you're going to miss out on a lot of life.

Re: Don't learn Dvorak

#97

Post by marssaxman »

I have been using Dvorak all my life - I never learned to touch-type with QWERTY - and for the most part I'd agree with this author's conclusions. While my typing speed is higher than average, it's not so much higher that I can confidently credit the use of Dvorak, and in any case I have never found that typing speed has any significant effect on programming productivity.

Contrary to this author's experience, however, I very rarely need to do any serious typing on anyone else's computer, so the fact that I become an absurdly clumsy two-finger typist in front of any machine but my own is nothing more than an occasional source of amusement for my coworkers; nor do I especially mind their reluctance to jump in on my machine and type for me. I can imagine how this would be more of an issue if you worked in a pair-programming shop, but I never have. In any case, this problem has been trivially solved for decades now, on every OS - you just enable a little built-in menu bar widget which selects the keyboard layout, and you can flip back and forth in less than a second.

Re: Don't learn Dvorak

#98

Post by hajile »

jamesg wrote: post #42

If you're considering learning Dvorak, I'd strongly recommend considering Colemak instead. I tried Dvorak with the hope that it would mitigate RSI, but it spreads the work among fingers pretty unevenly -- I really ended up just moving the problem rather than fixing it (mostly to my right pinky). Colemak is (relatively) easy to learn if you know QWERTY, and it's been life-changing for me: I can work for more hours of…

Same here. Colmak allows me to to type at higher speeds for longer without pain.

I carry a mechanical keyboard with dipswitches that allow me to use colmak on other people's machines without much trouble (as a bonus, mechanical keyboard generally nicer than their keyboard too).

Re: Don't learn Dvorak

#99

Post by stouset »

ninjakeyboard wrote: post #43

Learn Colemak instead IMO - I've been using it for about 7-8 years. Here are my remarks to address your gripes from a long time alt-layout typist. FWIW your ability to type on QWERTY returns after a while - you just need to keep using both. It's like a switch changes although it helps to have visual queues to get back into gear with qwerty I find. Otherwise my keyboards are all blank now including a blank kinesis adv…

As someone else who learned and still uses Colemak... it's just not worth it in the long-term unless you're using it to address something specific like chronic RSI.

QWERTY does return to you, sort of, but only if you still actively use it in some other contexts. If you don't use it regularly, you'll lose proficiency in it and not really be able to easily switch between the two (though in my own experience I did retain some of the muscle memory, it was just much more error-prone). I'm at the point now where I can somewhat easily switch between the two, but it's very context-specific. My fingers recognize my laptop keyboard and gaming machine keyboard and instinctively use Colemak and QWERTY for them, respectively. But there are still times where my brain gets into an "undefined state" where I can't figure out which layout a machine is using or which layout my fingers are attempting to type, and as far as I can tell I end up typing something like a nonsensical hybrid mashup between them which is surprisingly sticky and difficult to recover from.

In the end, I believe my typing speed is something like 10%–15% faster than what it used to be with QWERTY, but I don't feel there's many contexts where I'm genuinely limited by typing speed. On the other hand until I become semi-fluent in QWERTY again, it was maddeningly difficult to use other people's computers.

Re: Don't learn Dvorak

#100

Post by hajile »

stouset wrote: post #99
ninjakeyboard wrote: post #43

Learn Colemak instead IMO - I've been using it for about 7-8 years. Here are my remarks to address your gripes from a long time alt-layout typist. FWIW your ability to type on QWERTY returns after a while - you just need to keep using both. It's like a switch changes although it helps to have visual queues to get back into gear with qwerty I find. Otherwise my keyboards are all blank now including a blank kinesis adv…

As someone else who learned and still uses Colemak... it's just not worth it in the long-term unless you're using it to address something specific like chronic RSI. QWERTY does return to you, sort of, but only if you still actively use it in some other contexts. If you don't use it regularly, you'll lose proficiency in it and not really be able to easily switch between the two (though in my own experience I did retai…

I sort of agree, but I think it's better to prevent RSI than to manage it.
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