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Tesla Faces U.S. Criminal Probe Over Musk Statements

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Re: Tesla Faces U.S. Criminal Probe Over Musk Statements

#221

Post by simcop2387 »

dnautics wrote: post #171
rootusrootus wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He fits the legal definition of natural born citizen.

are IVF children disqualified? Legal citation on the natural born question, please.

This is "natural" in a legal context not a biological context. What this generally amounts to meaning is that you met the requirements of being a citizen when you were born. This doesn't specify a method of birth (cesarean or otherwise), but instead that you're either born to existing citizen parents, on us soil, or on otherwise recognized us territory (Puerto Rico, military bases, embassy grounds in a foreign country I think also can count) and I believe I've heard that an exception to this is that you're not being born to diplomats on official foreign government business, because not all countries recognize dual citizenship and forcefully giving the newborn US citizenship could cause diplomatic issues with the other country.

Re: Tesla Faces U.S. Criminal Probe Over Musk Statements

#222

Post by ivraatiems »

nickik wrote: post #178
ivraatiems wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you define "successful?" If Elon is doing things that are illegal or otherwise just boneheaded now, how much leeway does he get? What would it take to make you decide he shouldn't be CEO?

How I define successful. Well, how about go back 10 years and look at the size of Tesla and SpaceX. And then look at them now. I dont think anybody can argue that he was not succcessful.

But Tesla is not profitable, SpaceX claims to be but the veracity of the claim is untested. They're constantly at risk of collapse (due to bad management), and they don't seem to be self-sustaining - Tesla in particular needs infusions of cash constantly to function, and is essentially on life support. They do make good (or at least novel and fascinating) products, but the cost of doing so is extremely high.

Why does "big" == successful? I'm not saying money is the only thing we should ever optimize for, but I'm skeptical that growth is a viable alternative.

Edit: I've edited the first paragraph substantially because I did not accurately understand SpaceX's profitability vs Tesla's.

Re: Tesla Faces U.S. Criminal Probe Over Musk Statements

#223

Post by ivraatiems »

rootusrootus wrote: post #198
ivraatiems wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't there a good chance they'd just mothball the whole company and keep on making regular gasoline-engine cars?

Toyota/GM/Ford/VW/etc did not become big, successful corporations by dictating to consumers what they want to buy.

No, but they might be able to remain big, successful corporations by preventing consumers from buying anything else.

Re: Tesla Faces U.S. Criminal Probe Over Musk Statements

#224

Post by Asparagirl »

The thing is, now that the DOJ has their foot in the door, they may not stop at the infamous tweet. They're going to look at the books. They're going to be talking to allllll the recent senior executive departures, some of whom ran for the hills within days of taking their jobs.

Who knows what kinds of bugs they'll find when they turn over some rocks?

Re: Tesla Faces U.S. Criminal Probe Over Musk Statements

#225

Post by Nasrudith »

TAForObvReasons wrote: post #11
chollida1 wrote: post #5

The sad piece of karma in all of this is that Musk tweeted in an effort to destroy the shorts. His tweet turned out to: - give the shorts a big dip in his stock, - an investigation by the SEC - an investigation by the DOJ - the backing off of a deep pocketed investor in the Saudis - Him potentially being personally liable, which would mean having to step away from SpaceX and Tesla if he was found guilty of fraud. Thi…

> All to screw with the shorts, who really have no power whatso ever to hinder Telsa. If Tesla wasn't burning through cash and didn't need an ever-inflating stock price in order to keep the house in order, the shorts would be powerless and in all honestly would back off. The only reason the shorts have power is that Tesla's future is currently heavily dependent on its stock price.

Stocks prices are based off of two things really - current earning and perception of potential earnings in the future.

Tech stocks are infamously based largely on the second more than the first. Many do go reinvestment heavy like Amazon did for years before they started to post more profits.

Given the feedback loop impact things get weirdly circular in potential for success based upon others. Not in a something from nothing sense but in a giving what it takes to succeed sense.

Re: Tesla Faces U.S. Criminal Probe Over Musk Statements

#226

Post by jimmaswell »

WoahNow wrote: post #213
jimmaswell wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be a (possibly huge) blow to our future as a planet if he were banned from being an executive of a company for even just 2 years. I hope for humanity's sake that it doesn't come to that.

What makes you believe that? All the major car companies are making EVs and there are several SpaceX competitors (Blue Origin in particular). The SolarCity side of Tesla's business is declining, but there are still many companies offering solar installations.

Besides that I feel Elon's companies are the more important industry leaders in those areas, is anyone else working on high speed underground transportation around the US or space tourism?

Re: Tesla Faces U.S. Criminal Probe Over Musk Statements

#227

Post by delecti »

nickik wrote: post #170
philwelch wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would sell Tesla to a large conglomerate that actually understands car production, like Toyota or VW.

Understanding car production is less important then for EV then massive battery investment and knowlage, building a integrated brand, global charging infrastructure and so on. Toyota might be better at building profitable cars, but Tesla is better at building profitable EVs.

I think Tesla's failure at scaling their manufacturing is pretty good evidence against your claim. There are other brands making EVs without the same issues as Tesla.

Re: Tesla Faces U.S. Criminal Probe Over Musk Statements

#228

Post by dmix »

vkou wrote: post #181
nickik wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem I have with statments like this is that is twitter is often awesome as well. Getting great updates about technologies in SpaceX, Tesla or Boring. He also answers questions of podcasters and journalists.

He also goes on personal crusades against members of the press, or just some random people that have said something mean, but true about him. (Vern Unsworth) He is very open to fans who give him good press, but closes up, and dismisses boring questions from haters and non-believers and shorts. Now, there is certainly a bit of a track record with a recent American presidents for this sort of thing. I'm not sure you wa…

What is the middle ground here? Are all public figures supposed to completely hold back all views and follow some unspoken social rules?

It's one thing not to make dumb mistakes that hurt your company but the end result of this outrage/apology tour culture we're developing and forever expanding the scope of is going to create a completely risk averse, milquetoast, and boring culture where honesty from public figures is rare and withheld as it was in the Victorian era.

I'm happy there are people like Musk who push back on this idea. He's still human, this is how he actually feels, and he has nothing left to prove to the world as a billionaire with multiple successful companies.

Plus measuring a private citizens communication to the same degree as a presidents is a bad idea. And it's like a good reason why Elon wants to take his company private as well.

I'm okay with having red lines but everyone seems so eager to make those red lines one step above corporate-speak filtered through a PR firm and a focus-group. At some point we need to push back on this and tell everyone to calm down, the world isn't ending because someone tweeted something you find (the key word here) mildly offensive.

Re: Tesla Faces U.S. Criminal Probe Over Musk Statements

#229

Post by leesec »

harryh wrote: post #214
leesec wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obvious does not mean provable in a court of law. He also tweeted this: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/980566101124722688?lang=... Was this some elaborate stock exploitation? I don't mind the investigation but this whole thing, especially all the hate, like he ruined short sellers lives ( the stock is way down since the tweet ), is insane to me.

I actually do think your linked tweet is problematic (though on a much smaller scale than the "secured funding" one). While obviously a joke, it was at the very least an irresponsible one from a public company CEO and definitely could be viewed as an attempt to manipulate algorithmic traders via the dissemination of misinformation. CEOs have a legal duty to their shareholders and the public to communicate about their…

I guess anything 'could be viewed as an attempt to manipulate algorithmic traders' then.

At what point did obvious jokes become illegal?

Re: Tesla Faces U.S. Criminal Probe Over Musk Statements

#230

Post by vkou »

dmix wrote: post #228
vkou wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He also goes on personal crusades against members of the press, or just some random people that have said something mean, but true about him. (Vern Unsworth) He is very open to fans who give him good press, but closes up, and dismisses boring questions from haters and non-believers and shorts. Now, there is certainly a bit of a track record with a recent American presidents for this sort of thing. I'm not sure you wa…

What is the middle ground here? Are all public figures supposed to completely hold back all views and follow some unspoken social rules? It's one thing not to make dumb mistakes that hurt your company but the end result of this outrage/apology tour culture we're developing and forever expanding the scope of is going to create a completely risk averse, milquetoast, and boring culture where honesty from public figures…

> What is the middle ground here? Are all public figures supposed to completely hold back all views and follow some unspoken social rules?

The middle ground is that you shouldn't be so full of yourself, that when you make a technically stupid suggestion, and get called on it by an expert, your immediate reaction is making personal attacks against that person.

And then, instead of apologizing, doubling and tripling down on it.

The middle ground is that when the owners of your company ask you questions about your financials, you don't dismiss them as boring questions, and then take five fluff ones from some dude that makes gushing YouTube videos about you.

The middle ground is that you should generally behave honestly in public.

The middle ground is that you shouldn't fire people from your company for testing positive for THC, and then going on the air, and smoking pot.

These aren't some arcane, unwritten rules, that only slimy politicians and social contract lawyers understand. This is basic human decency.

> Plus measuring a private citizens communication to the same degree as a presidents is a bad idea. And it's like a good reason why Elon wants to take his company private as well.

If you're exhibiting a lot of selfish and narcissistic traits as a private person and CEO, you'll probably keep exhibiting them as a president. I don't think the amount of scrutiny you undergo in the latter job goes down.

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