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Tesla Faces U.S. Criminal Probe Over Musk Statements

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Re: Tesla Faces U.S. Criminal Probe Over Musk Statements

#121

Post by abalone »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #87
abalone wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a massive oversimplification. Musk may be in peril but this is not as cut-and-dried a case of fraud like you make it seem. Consider this recent comment from the SEC: “When you talk about fraud,” [Jina Choi of the SEC] answered, “you’re talking about a state of mind, you’re talking about mens rea. We call it scienter. You have to do something with intentionality. The idea of just making a misstatement doesn’t…

> That telegraphs a pretty lenient stance on misstatements that aren't completely fabricated American commercial law goes out of its way to avoid criminalizing stupidity. At a certain level, the difference between a genius and a madman is the genius was correct. They are indifferentiable without the benefit of hindsight. The nail in Elon's coffin (or lack thereof) will probably revolve around the degree to which he d…

Nah, it's clear Musk hates short sellers. That's not the issue. Nor is his desire to hurt them. The question is whether he had scienter when misstating the finality of the deal he was negotiating.

Re: Tesla Faces U.S. Criminal Probe Over Musk Statements

#122

Post by wgerard »

Latteland wrote: post #82
zwerdlds wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shorts drive the price down, making it more expensive for the company to borrow from the market by selling stock. They have to sell more shares to receive a similar amount.

Also the shorts try to push the stock down via endless false rumors (there are real challenges to tesla of course) about bad cars, crashes, fires, etc, and those false rumors must prevent some people who just don't have time for so much drama from looking into them.

That's a realllly simplistic and one-sided view of short sellers.

Re: Tesla Faces U.S. Criminal Probe Over Musk Statements

#123

Post by rootusrootus »

bdamm wrote: post #117
kec wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Elon is not a natural born citizen of the US (He's South African), he is ineligible for the presidency.

Didn't stop Ted Cruz from running, did it?

He fits the legal definition of natural born citizen.

Re: Tesla Faces U.S. Criminal Probe Over Musk Statements

#125

Post by ghaff »

bdamm wrote: post #117
kec wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Elon is not a natural born citizen of the US (He's South African), he is ineligible for the presidency.

Didn't stop Ted Cruz from running, did it?

Natural born citizen is not unambiguously defined. However, the common interpretation is citizen from birth, which Cruz was by virtue of having a mother who was a US citizen.

Re: Tesla Faces U.S. Criminal Probe Over Musk Statements

#126

Post by harryh »

tptacek wrote: post #89
romed wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intent does not matter. If Musk got up on Twitter and announced "I have secured orders for fifty million cars at $50000 each" because he was drunk at 8am, that would not be excusable either.

Intent matters enormously in US criminal law.

Intent matters enormously but I think this is a different situation than some layman commenting on financial matters. Musk is the CEO of a ~50B public company with deep experience in fundraising and other matters of finance.

Even if we can't say definitively what was going on inside his head when he posted that tweet we can say that any reasonable person in that role with that level of experience can be expected to understand what "funding secured" means.

It's kind of like if I walk into a store and take something off a shelf without paying for it. I can't claim "it's not stealing because I didn't know this stuff wasn't just free for the taking" because any reasonable person in my situation should understand what a store is and how it works.

Re: Tesla Faces U.S. Criminal Probe Over Musk Statements

#127

Post by jokoon »

nostrademons wrote: post #97

Imagine a private company with ballistic missiles and submarines... I was musing the other day that Elon Musk may be planning to run for president. Why? Well, if there's one thing that 2016 showed us, it's that the road to the White House runs through snubbing Wall Street, calling the press a bunch of boring liars, accusing your opponents of pedophilia, making bizarre incoherent tweet storms in the middle of the nigh…

Aside from the fact that he's not born in the US, he doesn't seem like a good orator.

Re: Tesla Faces U.S. Criminal Probe Over Musk Statements

#128

Post by bduerst »

riphay wrote: post #95
staplers wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Longs are not "people holding stock". A long is purchased on borrowed capital paid back with interest. It is a much riskier play.

Long is short-hand for anyone benefiting from the price of the stock rising. This includes people who own the stock outright, have bought on credit, own call options, have sold put options, etc.

Yeah, long is slang for long term investor: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/long.asp

Re: Tesla Faces U.S. Criminal Probe Over Musk Statements

#129

Post by Asparagirl »

thomaskcr wrote: post #78
chollida1 wrote: post #5

The sad piece of karma in all of this is that Musk tweeted in an effort to destroy the shorts. His tweet turned out to: - give the shorts a big dip in his stock, - an investigation by the SEC - an investigation by the DOJ - the backing off of a deep pocketed investor in the Saudis - Him potentially being personally liable, which would mean having to step away from SpaceX and Tesla if he was found guilty of fraud. Thi…

I opened my first actual short position that day (instead of just buying puts). He literally set an upper limit on how much money you could lose and I just felt really confident he was full of crap. Got out of the position at a bit under $310 so left a lot on the table but was happy. He literally handed people considering opening a short position on the stock a gift.

...and those of us who bought puts, because we don't feel comfortable actually shorting a stock. :-)

(Congrats on your successful trade!)

Re: Tesla Faces U.S. Criminal Probe Over Musk Statements

#130

Post by nickik »

Asparagirl wrote: post #26
chollida1 wrote: post #5

The sad piece of karma in all of this is that Musk tweeted in an effort to destroy the shorts. His tweet turned out to: - give the shorts a big dip in his stock, - an investigation by the SEC - an investigation by the DOJ - the backing off of a deep pocketed investor in the Saudis - Him potentially being personally liable, which would mean having to step away from SpaceX and Tesla if he was found guilty of fraud. Thi…

Yes. I saw a tweet the other day that essentially said that the very worst thing you could do to Elon Musk would be to lock him in a comfortable conference room with plenty of food and water and excellent WiFi signal...and his phone. I can think of a political figure for whom this would be true, too.

The problem I have with statments like this is that is twitter is often awesome as well.

Getting great updates about technologies in SpaceX, Tesla or Boring. He also answers questions of podcasters and journalists.

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