Anyone that can't take the criticism for bad work presented to the head of the most successful software project of all time don't deserve to participate. Linus has done an amazing job of keeping all my computers, safe, secure and reliable and anyone that messes with his method should not even be allowed to participate. I don't care about anyone's need to feel like a special and capable snowflake, I need the best software Open Source can provide.
Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
871–880 of 1001 posts
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#872Linus is stubborn, persistent, and unyielding to what he sees as bullshit. These I believe are all very valuable qualities for the head of a massive software project, and may be part of the reason as to why Linux is where it is today. However, Linus is also a bit of an asshole, turning technical criticism into personal seemingly personal attacks. I believe those 2 sets of qualities are separable, but I would guess it…
I'd bet people tend to cluster onto the line separating "agreeable and lax" and "rude but firm" (as a sweeping generality) Consider this: A third category of people who are able to accomplish their goals by rallying others to their cause. They are essentially imposing their will on others, but are able to do it in a way that is not "rude." This is called charisma. - "Agreeable and lax"... you allow them to paint the…
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Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#873Earlier quoted context omitted.
FWIW, I'm pretty sure that "tearing someone's work apart" doesn't require "tearing the person apart / humiliating them"... and I suspect it's the former rather than the latter which is, in the right contexts, useful in learning / improvement.
Well said. You can tear the work apart if needed but don't get personal. Ever.
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Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#874Earlier quoted context omitted.
Heinlein wrote "honorifics and formal politeness". I interpret this as things like saying "please", "thank you", and other straightforward ritualistic decorative words - not as actually changing what you're actually saying to avoid hurting feelings. There's a big difference between reformatting the message and changing the message.
What's described in the comment I responded to is exactly "reformatting the message" - you still communicate the same thing, ultimately, just in a way that allows the person on the receiving end to save face.
This reminds me of employee work reviews in Germany when they leave, that are mandated by law to be positive (not kidding).
The result is that it spawned a new code language for HR people (there are dictionaries) that "translate" the review.
Everybody is polite..
For instance the level of praise in with the various points indicates a scoring.
Here are a few examples:
He showed understanding for his work. -> He did not do anything.
He did all the work with great diligence and interest. -> Eager, but not very efficient.
He tried to do his job justice. -> The will was there, more unfortunately not.
He has used his skills. -> He did what he could. That was not much.
Here is a Google Translated page about it: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&pr...
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#875Earlier quoted context omitted.
So you are equating politeness with not halting bad ideas. That is not politeness, that is incompetence. Competent people would halt bad ides, but it can be done in different ways: - Abrasive: This idea is the dumbest ever and you are an idiot that deserves to die. - Constructive: This idea have problems X, Y and Z. - Polite: Thank you for the effort, but I see problems X, Y and Z with the idea in its current form. A…
Your "polite" has moved way too far into manipulative / passive-aggressive with weasel words like "I see" and "in its current form". If you are in a position of power like Linus, where your perception is the project's reality, couching such realities as if your perception is the only problem will lead to fights and a lot more resentment. Just saying, "Thanks, but I won't accept this until X, Y, and Z are corrected,"…
Why would you start fighting and/or feel resentment if you received a reply like the "polite" example? Genuine question, I don't see the issue but I'm ready to learn.
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#876Earlier quoted context omitted.
Steve Jobs might have been an even bigger asshole.
Not bigger than people commenting on his personality without meeting him once.
We all have justified beliefs about things we haven't personally observed. E.g. I didn't see the moon landing but I believe it happened.
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#877Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It eliminates any military, security or even anything useful. Haha, I love the implicit signaling you're doing. I mean not only is it just not true but your qualifications for "useful" and "not useful" are really stupid.
Are guidance systems on missiles OK or not?
Yes. Despite your attempts at playing philosophically dumb it is okay.
This is the dumbest form of virtue signaling while erecting scare crows I've ever seen in an online forum.
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#878Earlier quoted context omitted.
> One thing that is true in all successful organizations over time is that for any given person, no amount of genius will make up for being an asshole. Wouldn't Steve Jobs be a counterexample to this? And possibly Bill Gates?
No, actually (at least, IMHO). Jobs organization failed more than once due to him? Remember that Apple (etc) have been troubled at many times through their history with him at the helm :) Gates also eventually left in part because he was doing more harm than good (and has tried to turn himself into a more reasonable person it seems). Compare that to the organization that MS is now under a leader who isn't an asshole?…
So you think Steve Jobs was a net negative to Apple? They'd be better off if e.g. he'd never come back to run it?
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#879Earlier quoted context omitted.
> He clearly can separate the blunt stubbornness ("we do not break userland, period") For what it's worth, he doesn't even avoid breaking userland. Off the top of my head, we had a problem at work a few months back where kernel 4.3 and below rounded up listen(fd, 0) to something nonzero, kernel 4.4 didn't, and a piece of commercial software was (inexplicably) using listen(fd, 0). https://ldpreload.com/blog/git-bisect…
I understand "do not break userspace" differently than you do. You seem to understand it as "do not make a change that could hypothetically break userspace." I understand it as "do not make a change that is known to break userspace." There are hundreds, if not thousands, of little behaviors that a userspace program could hypothetically depend on. In many cases, it would be impossible to change things without breaking…
> There are hundreds, if not thousands, of little behaviors that a userspace program could hypothetically depend on. In many cases, it would be impossible to change things without breaking observed behavior.
Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off
#880It's about fucking time. I personally stay away from software created by people who lack empathy; technical goodness !> creating a good environment and product for actual people. I don't go to restaurants run by douchebags either, no matter how good the food might be. And Git has the UX of software created by someone with no empathy. I hope Linus heals from this, and I hope the culture of the Linux community changes…
> And Git has the UX of software created by someone with no empathy. I would really like to understand what you expect a UX for a command line tool to look like. Maybe instead of throwing an error if you did something wrong, it would apologize to you first? Or perhaps it should preface all output with "dearest Sir/Madam, here is the information you requested:" ?
As a first step, you'd need to know what empathy is [1]. It's the ability to perceive a situation from the experience of another. It is the very essence of UX design.