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Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

lore.kernel.org

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Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#381

Post by arkades »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #306
arkades wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, you did just spin it into its worst interpretation. I read the grandparent post as meaning, "Be brutal when the least ego / public stature is at risk, but never cut people down in front of their peers."

That assumes the only problem with being brutal is making people look bad in front of their peers. That's far from the only problem with being brutal.

I make no such assumption, and I'm not a fan of brutality. I'm not endorsing his position, I'm just rephrasing it as what I believe he meant to say.

I'm also not a fan of intentionally putting the worst possible spin on someone's words. Reading charitably is pretty much always a net positive for any thread.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#382

Post by Alex3917 »

namarie wrote: post #379
Alex3917 wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The sooner folks are forced to deal with it, the better off the organization ends up in the long run. If Linux gets measurably worse after this, then would you support sending Linus to a second therapist to make him more of an asshole again?

Why is your first instinct to think he will get worse?

I don't think it will, but if people are claiming it will get better then that should be treated as a falsifiable belief rather than as a truthclaim.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#383

Post by TomVDB »

ci5er wrote: post #341
joatmon-snoo wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More importantly, many thanks and congratulations to the folks who finally changed his mind.

I may be odd-man out here, but I really didn't see any part of his mind that needed to be changed. What did you disagree with?

I disagree strongly with his personal 'no BS' attacks. For some people, it's a huge deterrent to make contributions.

I've participated in a number of open source projects. I like to think that I've made useful suggestions and contributions, in addition to making dumb ones. When I make a dumb suggestion, I expect to corrected in a respectful way.

There have been cases where a project maintainer answered in an aggressive, passive aggressive or belittling way.

These kind of reactions stress me out, make me lose a night of sleep etc. I can handle a rejection on sound arguments, but I don't handle stress and confrontation well at all. I wish it were different, but that's just not the way I am.

They are sufficient to make me stop contributing to and leave a project.

A public rebuke by somebody like Linus is my worst nightmare, and I would never consider working on the Linux kernel because of them.

I image there are many more technically capable potential contributors out there who have the same reaction.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#384

Post by lucio »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #254
tomp wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are some examples of him insulting people (as opposed to their work/code)?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18001144 He doesn't seem to hesitate to get extremely personal.

The more exaggerated the cursing, the more problematic is the subject according to Linus. Linus' over the top cursing is a means to transmit his evaluation of how problematic some code is. It's never personal.

Show me an instance where his cursing is not related to kernel code.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#385

Post by TomVDB »

serf wrote: post #142

I'm probably going to be alone in saying so, but I always enjoyed Linus and his attitude. (to me) it made him appear honest and dedicated to (his own) goals, and I always felt like that was respectable. (mostly) whenever he was proven technically wrong about how to do something he would concede to the technically better solution, and if he didn't do so he gave reasons for his conclusion. in other words : his technica…

Would you have enjoyed it if you were the object of one of his rants?

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#386

Post by mmirate »

Mtinie wrote: post #221
tomohawk wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, what would you do? Would you rather have Linux, or would you rather that noone ever get their feelings hurt by harsh comments? Perhaps he should have been given the boot years ago for saying such things, but would we have Linux today? I really don't think that that is a false choice. You and I did not create Linux - Linus did. You and I did not keep it going despite the massive flock of ducks constantly pecking.…

Did Linux suck the air out of other, competing projects throughout its history? If so we can’t possibly consider what was or wasn’t lost.

If it did, then good riddance. Linux is barely able to attract hardware vendors to write less-than-afterthought drivers as it is; let alone with, say, even more non-Unix OS flavors as distraction.

Things like Redox and Haiku may be interesting theoretical constructs, but without the ability to use Linux (or BSD) device-drivers, they're not generally useful to the free software community and we can only hope they don't draw too many resources away from more useful pursuits.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#387

Post by phillmv »

tptacek wrote: post #314
jakeinspace wrote: post #257

Linus is stubborn, persistent, and unyielding to what he sees as bullshit. These I believe are all very valuable qualities for the head of a massive software project, and may be part of the reason as to why Linux is where it is today. However, Linus is also a bit of an asshole, turning technical criticism into personal seemingly personal attacks. I believe those 2 sets of qualities are separable, but I would guess it…

He's not just stubborn, persistent, and unyielding: he's performatively so. In his most notorious attacks, he's clearly playing to an audience. That could be the problem. He clearly can separate the blunt stubbornness ("we do not break userland, period") from the performative rudeness ("SHUT THE FUCK UP MAURO"). (I mean, to be clear: what the fuck do I know? I've never been in the position Linus is in.)

i'm old enough to remember "whoa look at linus flaming someone" at the top of slashdot.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#389

Post by endtime »

DannyBee wrote: post #288
serf wrote: post #142

I'm probably going to be alone in saying so, but I always enjoyed Linus and his attitude. (to me) it made him appear honest and dedicated to (his own) goals, and I always felt like that was respectable. (mostly) whenever he was proven technically wrong about how to do something he would concede to the technically better solution, and if he didn't do so he gave reasons for his conclusion. in other words : his technica…

"in other words : his technical brilliance, in my own opinion, was a far larger boon than the problems stemming from having to deal with his knife-like personality." One thing that is true in all successful organizations over time is that for any given person, no amount of genius will make up for being an asshole. It may take time, etc, but eventually, it ends up a significant net negative for the organization. The s…

> One thing that is true in all successful organizations over time is that for any given person, no amount of genius will make up for being an asshole.

Wouldn't Steve Jobs be a counterexample to this? And possibly Bill Gates?

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