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China now the most prolific contributor to physical sciences, engineering, math

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Re: China now the most prolific contributor to physical sciences, engineering, math

#301
post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a pretty gross oversimplification considering the dominance of Arabic as a scientific language during the Dark Ages (when Europeans preferred burning people to actually thinking). The word "algebra" is definitely not Latin.

That's a gross oversimplification of "dark ages" -- modern historians no longer use that term, because they weren't actually "dark" :) To me, it was a very interesting time. For example, that's the period of time in which we built the most beautiful and livable town squares in the world. Even today, when you go to Europe to visit a city, the city square was probably designed in the middle ages (Paris being a notable…

The dark ages usually refers to the periods from about 200-1000 AD. The middle ages are usually from about 1000 AD to 1700 AD.

And the dark ages aren't called that because human nature was "dark" during that time. They're called that because we know very little about them.

Re: China now the most prolific contributor to physical sciences, engineering, math

#302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is a global phenomenon. Maybe now, but as I already said in my comment. It was not so when I grew up, and I would dare to claim that much of what you mention is based on aping Hollywood success, especially as a business model. As for the wars, what exactly is the connection to the phenomenon we discussed? Those were state-sponsored wars. Not that it changes anything, I stand by my gut-feeling based claims that I…

> Statistics that selects only the data that happens to support what you would like to show is dishonest at best. This. This applies to your post as well, don't you think? > Let's not even mention the story of how the US was made - with guns, by individuals as well as the state. Let's not, since I don't think there's a country in Europe (bigger than Monaco/Lichtenstein, ofc) or even in the whole world, that wasn't ma…

> This applies to your post as well, don't you think?

You are very strong in whataboutism, it's just that I don't see a trace of substance in any of your silly replies. Instead of coming up with ANY useful point at all, all you have is "but what about this or that", none of which has any relation to the discussion. Is you name Dick? http://dilbert.com/strip/2015-06-07

Re: China now the most prolific contributor to physical sciences, engineering, math

#303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that Mandarin has some genuine disadvantages over other languages. For example the effort involved in incorporating foreign words. Mandarin excludes a lot of syllables common in other languages, so you need to choose different sounds to replace the word. Worse, you have to pick characters for these syllables which preferably don't have ridiculous or offensive side meanings. Then everybody in the field has…

This is very untrue--if you look at math or machine learning terminology, the phrases used are actually direct literal translations of the constituent words. It is very understandable, even from my perspective as someone only slightly literate in Chinese.

If you want to use these terms when writing your own texts in Chinese, then you have to know the actual characters, because they are still not chosen from an alphabet.

This is compared to English or most Indoeuropean languages were you copy the term unchanged most of the time.

Just a minor point. But it makes learning the terminology of a subject rather hard.

Re: China now the most prolific contributor to physical sciences, engineering, math

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what China demonstrated here is, that it is totally possible for a poor country to bootstrap itself All the American and European companies who moved production there bootstrapped China. The money had to come from somewhere. China saw the immense opportunity in western greed and ran with it.

USSR (for all its faults) achieved the same thing in a more hostile environment than the PRC.

The USSR achieved more than just the same thing. When you say more hostile environment, I'm assuming you mean they were in an essentially autarkic condition, unlike contemporary China. But beyond that, the Soviets produced far greater, actually novel results in sciences, mathematics, and technology while having only one-fifth of China's population.

Re: China now the most prolific contributor to physical sciences, engineering, math

#305

The quality debate about scientific merit aside, if the U.S. wants to remain "the best", then we need to incentivize the best scientists and researchers in other countries to come here and become U.S. citizens. A lot of famous physicists, mathematicians, and logicians have done this over the past 100 years. Unfortunately, the attractiveness of becoming a U.S. citizen is waning because (1) current U.S. policies on sci…

There's another side to this that isn't discussed and that is - at least for me - the easier and more lucrative path was to take my bachelor's degree in physics and get a corporate job. My GRE / GPA wasn't going to get me into Princeton anyway. But the road to a PhD in Physics in 1994 was basically 1) Probably 8 years of study + teaching assistant work and 2) a quality dissertation. That gets you in the CV pile for t…

Finding a good tenured position is comically difficult now. I know an assistant professor of engineering at Princeton who just left for Renaissance Technologies because he couldn't secure a long-term professorship there.

Re: China now the most prolific contributor to physical sciences, engineering, math

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very untrue--if you look at math or machine learning terminology, the phrases used are actually direct literal translations of the constituent words. It is very understandable, even from my perspective as someone only slightly literate in Chinese.

If you want to use these terms when writing your own texts in Chinese, then you have to know the actual characters, because they are still not chosen from an alphabet. This is compared to English or most Indoeuropean languages were you copy the term unchanged most of the time. Just a minor point. But it makes learning the terminology of a subject rather hard.

What's "hard"? Over millennia the sharp corners that make learning and using a language difficult have all been knocked off. Characters that are hard to recognize fade out or are modified. Grammar simplifies. And as an existence proof: more than a billion people speak various Chinese languages, almost all of them learning them as children; probably close to a billion can read and write it to some degree, many with little other schooling.

You likely come (as did I) from a background in which such languages are quite unfamiliar but that doesn't make them harder or easier in general. John DeFrancis wrote a funny essay about the "Japanese plan to replace the Roman alphabet within their empire after conquering North America" as a parody of the people who think that the Chinese and Japanese should replace their writing with an alphabetic approach.

You may not realize how hard it is for many speakers to learn English spelling where spelling is more conservative (to preserve meaning) than more phonetic writing systems like German, Spanish, Korean etc. The terms are seemingly more obscure. In fact it's to reduce that problem that we violate English "rules" to conserve the declension of the original noun (e.g. felid/felidae) which is uniform when the term is a loan word common across languages.

Re: China now the most prolific contributor to physical sciences, engineering, math

#307
post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a gross oversimplification of "dark ages" -- modern historians no longer use that term, because they weren't actually "dark" :) To me, it was a very interesting time. For example, that's the period of time in which we built the most beautiful and livable town squares in the world. Even today, when you go to Europe to visit a city, the city square was probably designed in the middle ages (Paris being a notable…

The dark ages usually refers to the periods from about 200-1000 AD. The middle ages are usually from about 1000 AD to 1700 AD. And the dark ages aren't called that because human nature was "dark" during that time. They're called that because we know very little about them.

No, the start of the middle ages is traditionally set to the end of the Roman Empire, 476 AD.

The Middle Ages is in the "middle" of the Roman Empire and Modernity. It's further divided into "early", "middle", and "late" middle ages. People don't use "dark ages" any more, you want to say "early middle ages". And while we don't know as much about that period as about other periods, we do still know quite a bit.

The point being that with the fall of the Roman Empire and these roving bands of germanic tribes coming in from the east, as well as Arab invaders coming in from the south, ND Viking Invaders coming in from the North, you had full blown race wars being fought all across Europe. People needed to form protective associations, and this created feudalism. If there is anything that defines the middle ages, it is Feudalism, and its remarkably stable system of reciprocal obligations. The lord had to protect the people working the land from the hostile world outside, and in return, they paid rent. This created a patchwork of little city-states, manors, and fiefdoms which collectively pacified Europe by creating a common sense of identity ("Christendom") as well as deterring invaders since there was no great Prize to sack anymore, there were thousands of little Prizes each defended with their own little perimeter. Across this patchwork there were large informal networks of guilds, monastic orders, etc. This is not to say that there were no wars, but the wars were between nobility, they were not race wars, which is huge. Race wars tend to be gruesome wars of extermination or enslavement because you don't view the other side as being human. When the whole continent shared the same faith and followed similar customs, and was connected by the same set of monastic orders and guilds, you couldn't fight a race war anymore.

Re: China now the most prolific contributor to physical sciences, engineering, math

#308
post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to use these terms when writing your own texts in Chinese, then you have to know the actual characters, because they are still not chosen from an alphabet. This is compared to English or most Indoeuropean languages were you copy the term unchanged most of the time. Just a minor point. But it makes learning the terminology of a subject rather hard.

What's "hard"? Over millennia the sharp corners that make learning and using a language difficult have all been knocked off. Characters that are hard to recognize fade out or are modified. Grammar simplifies. And as an existence proof: more than a billion people speak various Chinese languages, almost all of them learning them as children; probably close to a billion can read and write it to some degree, many with li…

It's an objective reality that the Chinese language has a higher information density per syllable and that "transmission" of speech is more easily disrupted. Native Mandarin speakers sometimes even have trouble communicating face to face and "write" characters with a finger on the other's palm.

It's also an objective reality that it takes more pieces of information to learn the Chinese representation of an English term than the other way around.

It doesn't mean learning English is always easier than Chinese, though it actually is for maybe even most Humans on earth.

Re: China now the most prolific contributor to physical sciences, engineering, math

#309
post #299
post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay down voters, I guess I was being to clever by half. My point was idiomatic translation is hard. “I could care less” means it’s literal opposite.

It's an iffy example, since many people consider 'could care less' to be incorrect.

But the point is machine translation needs to work on language the way it is, not the way it should be.
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