China now the most prolific contributor to physical sciences, engineering, math • Hacker News Board

Re: China now the most prolific contributor to physical sciences, engineering, math

#281

Post by ItsMe000001 » Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 5:59 PM UTC

gandhium wrote: post #280

ItsMe000001 wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am/was in the same boat as OP. I moved back to Germany after almost a decade in the US (mostly Silicon Valley). Closing your eyes does not make the problems go away. Even if you don't care and avoid the tens of millions of left-behind people, for myself, looking at things like health care was enough to give me second thoughts. It is nice as long as it is nice. I had a colleague, enterprise sales, very good income,…

> huge part of entertainment in movies, shows and games made/consumed in the US is about violence horror, and/or the end of society or even the world (oh and "heroes" of course - always coupled with violence). That is not a global phenomenon It is a global phenomenon. Chinese 'Three-body problem' and wuxia/xanxia flicks. Japanese films and animes. Also numerous books and films from France, England, Russia, Australia.…

> It is a global phenomenon.

Maybe now, but as I already said in my comment. It was not so when I grew up, and I would dare to claim that much of what you mention is based on aping Hollywood success, especially as a business model.

As for the wars, what exactly is the connection to the phenomenon we discussed? Those were state-sponsored wars. Not that it changes anything, I stand by my gut-feeling based claims that I trust civil society in Europe more - not if war(!) breaks out, not sure why you try to change the topic - but when society breaks down as in those mentioned stories and people are left on their own. Also, since you want to go after who has done more wars, did you compare Europe's wars and the US's wars since WWII too? Statistics that selects only the data that happens to support what you would like to show is dishonest at best. Let's not even mention the story of how the US was made - with guns, by individuals as well as the state.

Not that I have anything to criticize, I would not have mentioned any of that because it is not relevant to what I said. It's just that you brought it up for whatever reason, being very selective.

Re: China now the most prolific contributor to physical sciences, engineering, math

#282

Post by bajablast » Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 6:07 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #95

Eridrus wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point that most grad programs don't have US students is revealing - for those who have alternative entry into the US economy, most people decide that a PhD program is a poor choice. Most of the things people work on in their PhD programs are very niche, and most do not work in academia or on the same thing after they finish their PhD. And most people never really make a noticeable contribution to science…

>if Chinese folks start publishing in Mandarin They may, and then it will be like during the cold war where Soviets published in Russian and we'd be lucky if someone translated that into English. If it were to happen today, someone would make a business out of translating the publications --maybe even crowdsource the translations.

Unrelated, but I often notice that lots of stack overflow and github issues get translated into chinese by someone. It's kinda interesting to see

Re: China now the most prolific contributor to physical sciences, engineering, math

#283

Post by baybal2 » Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 6:16 PM UTC

eddieplan9 wrote: post #258

baybal2 wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Maybe it's time for US to let it down its own myth about American exceptionalism, and revisit the true cause of its current lead in global research: large influx of foreign talents, first from Europe, then Soviet Russia and now China/India. US was lucky to have this constant grab of the best minds from the rest of the world, but sadly, or maybe not, I can't see this would continue. That actually is US weakness, US a…

You cannot be further away from truth if you think the Chinese higher education nowadays follows the communist bloc model. I did my undergraduate at one of the best universities in China, and to comment on your point: > 1. Doctoral level studies are SUPER TOUGH It's common knowledge that in China, graduate school admission follows government policy mandates. Government says we need more top-tier talent, and this is t…

1. Under doctoral level, I mean doctoral level equivalent in Soviet system. In China, it is a postdoc researcher 博士後研究員

3. There are people with perfect scores who don't get admissions, and people who do chose tech schools on their own volition. In many places, a graduate of tech school will be preferred over a grad of a weaker university. A graduates of top tier tech schools are being taken faster than hot cookies - on employability those fare way better than university grads.

For a progressive part of society, that's not a stigma in any sense. For reactionaries, it is.

4. I can't agree, see my comments how Western entrepreneurs fare in China when they hire random people.

5. Can you actually tell where you studies took place? Real academia is there in China, but to some extend it did get sidelined by the credential-inflated undergraduate studies. As I said above, anything below 博士後 don't really involve genuine research activity. The grind shop, and actual research that universities keep in great care are a world apart.

Re: China now the most prolific contributor to physical sciences, engineering, math

#284

Post by baybal2 » Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 6:31 PM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #260

baybal2 wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prestigious they may be, but their entry requirements are laughable by Chinese standard, and, most importantly, most are fine just taking money. There still is a reactionary part of Chinese society that is super obsessed with matters of class and status, or at least they are much more than Americans for sure. Not having your child getting into a university can be seen as a social stigma, and parent of such child will…

While it's true that many are eager to accept foreign students willing to pay more, the more prestigious schools still require good grades and test scores.

Yes, and American tests are silly in comparison to even a regular term exam in Chinese high school.

Re: China now the most prolific contributor to physical sciences, engineering, math

#285

Post by celdon25 » Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 6:45 PM UTC

throwaway713 wrote: post #36

The quality debate about scientific merit aside, if the U.S. wants to remain "the best", then we need to incentivize the best scientists and researchers in other countries to come here and become U.S. citizens. A lot of famous physicists, mathematicians, and logicians have done this over the past 100 years. Unfortunately, the attractiveness of becoming a U.S. citizen is waning because (1) current U.S. policies on sci…

Can you give an example of one of those unfavorable policies and how China does it more favorably? The post speaks in general terms.

Re: China now the most prolific contributor to physical sciences, engineering, math

#286

Post by rsj_hn » Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 7:07 PM UTC

stickfigure wrote: post #247

rsj_hn wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, I'm not talking about total use. English isn't the most popular first language even today. I'm talking about which language is the most popular second language used in international dialogue, especially research. And the relevant speed there is not population growth but how fast the interconnections and traditions of science change. On the one hand, you have a lot of new scientists coming online, but on the other…

It's funny that in a startup/techie forum like this, nobody's yet brought up Metcalfe's Law. The network effects of language are incredibly strong, the switching costs are high, and English is well established. It's hard to imagine what could shift this trend, especially to Mandarin. China's population is probably not going to get dramatically larger than the current 1.4 bn, which is only 20% of the world total. Mayb…

I also think that the long run future of humanity is speaking a single language. The trend has not been to fragment languages but consolidate them because of the metcalf law effects you pointed out.

But even if that language is almost certain to be English, because english changes and has so many loan words, it would probably be unrecognizable to the english we speak today.

Re: China now the most prolific contributor to physical sciences, engineering, math

#287

Post by crimsonalucard » Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 7:14 PM UTC

ItsMe000001 wrote: post #281

gandhium wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> huge part of entertainment in movies, shows and games made/consumed in the US is about violence horror, and/or the end of society or even the world (oh and "heroes" of course - always coupled with violence). That is not a global phenomenon It is a global phenomenon. Chinese 'Three-body problem' and wuxia/xanxia flicks. Japanese films and animes. Also numerous books and films from France, England, Russia, Australia.…

> It is a global phenomenon. Maybe now, but as I already said in my comment. It was not so when I grew up, and I would dare to claim that much of what you mention is based on aping Hollywood success, especially as a business model. As for the wars, what exactly is the connection to the phenomenon we discussed? Those were state-sponsored wars. Not that it changes anything, I stand by my gut-feeling based claims that I…

Tbh I think it's a gender phenomenon. Men tend to like violence, war and movement in their stories and movies.

From media produced in other countries from now and before it is clear that it is not a national phenomenon. It's more than likely your experiences are purely anecdotal and dont even represent the norm.

Re: China now the most prolific contributor to physical sciences, engineering, math

#288

Post by rsj_hn » Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 7:26 PM UTC

neuromantik8086 wrote: post #262

rsj_hn wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Latin was the Lingua Franca of science until the 17th Century, or 1300 years after the collapse of the Roman Empire (Sorry Byzantium), so if that's not evidence for the stickiness of languages, I'm not sure what else you'd need. Wait for 1000 years after the North America, India, Western European civilizations collapse, and we'll see what international language scientists are using -- there's a good chance it will st…

That's a pretty gross oversimplification considering the dominance of Arabic as a scientific language during the Dark Ages (when Europeans preferred burning people to actually thinking). The word "algebra" is definitely not Latin.

That's a gross oversimplification of "dark ages" -- modern historians no longer use that term, because they weren't actually "dark" :)

To me, it was a very interesting time. For example, that's the period of time in which we built the most beautiful and livable town squares in the world. Even today, when you go to Europe to visit a city, the city square was probably designed in the middle ages (Paris being a notable exception) and the "old city" dating back to the middle ages, is more beautiful than the newer stuff around it. It was a period of beauty in urban design.

Also, the patterns of Feudalism were incredibly stable, compared to previous economic models, so a lot of the rich cultural traditions that were necessary to catapult Europe forward in the Enlightenment were rooted in the middle ages, and wouldn't have existed without Feudalism. If you tried to skip Feudalism and go straight into the 17th Century, Europe would have turned into a horror show -- just think of the French Revolution reign of terror, but assume it just never ends, because at the reciprocal commitments that became established in the middle ages tempered the radicalism of the enlightenment.

And although the pace of learning wasn't as fast as before, there were huge advances made in architecture and construction, culminating with the beautiful Gothic Cathedrals that are still wonders today, and survive today. How many buildings built today will stand for 800 years in the same splendor as the Cathedrals built in the middle ages?

It was also a time of great flowering of crafts and craftsmen, working in guilds scattered across small city-states and distributed political organizations. Distribution, rather than centralization, was the mantra.

For a more nuanced view especially of the cult of crafts, I recommend reading John Ruskin's essay "On the Nature of the Gothic" from his series "The Stones of Venice"

http://homes.ieu.edu.tr/arch204/READINGS/02_RUSKIN.pdf

Re: China now the most prolific contributor to physical sciences, engineering, math

#289

Post by sct202 » Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 7:32 PM UTC

dnautics wrote: post #92

jmmcd wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. In my field there are entire journals which I regard as rubbish and which are 95%+ Chinese/East Asian. Part of the problem is integrity, but a larger portion of the bad papers are just meaningless cargo-cult science.

i mean that's true across the board. A large portion of bad startups are just meaningless cargo culting, etc.

Also the recent rash of articles documenting low rates of being able to reproduce results of many well cited papers.

Re: China now the most prolific contributor to physical sciences, engineering, math

#290

Post by oh-kumudo » Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 8:24 PM UTC

MisterTea wrote: post #220

oh-kumudo wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US certainly has a cultural problem, out of all major countries out there, US has a weird position where a significant population denies evolution/climate change, and turned those topics into highly political charged issues. Also the US education system prior to college takes an another interesting aim to cultivate students' confidence, not by equipping them with logical training, but circumventing hard subjects like…

> what China demonstrated here is, that it is totally possible for a poor country to bootstrap itself All the American and European companies who moved production there bootstrapped China. The money had to come from somewhere. China saw the immense opportunity in western greed and ran with it.

If anything, the Chinese education system is a ripoff from Soviet Union, not the Western countries. It is probably still is.