Live data from Hacker News

Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

lore.kernel.org

681–690 of 1001 posts

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#681
post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's not just stubborn, persistent, and unyielding: he's performatively so. In his most notorious attacks, he's clearly playing to an audience. That could be the problem. He clearly can separate the blunt stubbornness ("we do not break userland, period") from the performative rudeness ("SHUT THE FUCK UP MAURO"). (I mean, to be clear: what the fuck do I know? I've never been in the position Linus is in.)

> He clearly can separate the blunt stubbornness ("we do not break userland, period") For what it's worth, he doesn't even avoid breaking userland. Off the top of my head, we had a problem at work a few months back where kernel 4.3 and below rounded up listen(fd, 0) to something nonzero, kernel 4.4 didn't, and a piece of commercial software was (inexplicably) using listen(fd, 0). https://ldpreload.com/blog/git-bisect…

I understand "do not break userspace" differently than you do.

You seem to understand it as "do not make a change that could hypothetically break userspace." I understand it as "do not make a change that is known to break userspace."

There are hundreds, if not thousands, of little behaviors that a userspace program could hypothetically depend on. In many cases, it would be impossible to change things without breaking observed behavior.

A great many changes fall in to the bucket "visibly changes behavior, but it is unlikely that anything depends on that specific behavior." When the assumption that no userspace program is broken turns out to be false, the correct response is to revert that change, and avoid breaking the userspace (hopefully this happens in an RC, before a stable release). What's incorrect, is to insist that the userspace program shouldn't have relied on that behavior.

In the referenced rant ("Mauro, SHUT THE FUCK UP!"), the problem wasn't so much that Mauro had changed the errno used (though Linus did take issue with the new errno); the big issue was that when Mauro learned that the change broke pulseaudio, Mauro tried to argue that it was a bug in pulseaudio for relying on what the errno was.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#682

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Twenty years is pleanty of time to realise the impact of behaviour. I've seen his noteable rants posted here and on Reddit for years. There no way he didn't know. I think he has known about his behavior for a long time, and someone with influence has explained the impact .

When you are doing something no one else has done before, it can be very challenging to figure out which pieces of what you do are essential secret sauce and which could stand to be improved. I changed my HN handle from Mz to this one after more than 8 years and only after hitting the leaderboard. I appear to be the only woman to have ever spent time on the leaderboard. It genuinely took me that long to conclude that…

I'm somewhat intrigued by your comments about a leaderboard because I'm not familiar with it. Please say more about that.

With regards to not having perspective, because he's so unique (or doing something unique), you may be right. I wonder if in fact he has been enabled for many years by his closest collaborators. People who should have said, "Hey Linus don't be a dick".

There's a debate going on in Australia, about whether it's ok to bully a bit, in parliament, because it's that sort of place. It's also a workplace and bullying is illegal in a workplace.

It's ok to be a dick if your a successful, influencial genius, not ok if your not successful, not influencial or not a genius. Maybe. He's a member of a broader community, where norms exist, and courtesy costs very little.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#683

Linus is stubborn, persistent, and unyielding to what he sees as bullshit. These I believe are all very valuable qualities for the head of a massive software project, and may be part of the reason as to why Linux is where it is today. However, Linus is also a bit of an asshole, turning technical criticism into personal seemingly personal attacks. I believe those 2 sets of qualities are separable, but I would guess it…

I think there's a delicate way to be both "firm" and "polite" - and that's to not be pretend to be "agreeable", but rather to separate the firmness on technical issues from politeness on personal description. That is, to say "this code is awful" while also a) going out of your way to praise the things co-workers/subordinates do well, and b) when it is appropriate to make general judgments on their performance, make i…

"Firm but friendly" is a standard moto for lawyers when negotiating/talking is what I've been told.

The problem is that Engineers aren't taught this, whereas lawyers have (like rules of engagement).

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#684

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you are doing something no one else has done before, it can be very challenging to figure out which pieces of what you do are essential secret sauce and which could stand to be improved. I changed my HN handle from Mz to this one after more than 8 years and only after hitting the leaderboard. I appear to be the only woman to have ever spent time on the leaderboard. It genuinely took me that long to conclude that…

I'm somewhat intrigued by your comments about a leaderboard because I'm not familiar with it. Please say more about that. With regards to not having perspective, because he's so unique (or doing something unique), you may be right. I wonder if in fact he has been enabled for many years by his closest collaborators. People who should have said, "Hey Linus don't be a dick". There's a debate going on in Australia, about…

> "I'm somewhat intrigued by your comments about a leaderboard because I'm not familiar with it. Please say more about that."

https://news.ycombinator.com/leaders

Other lists:

https://news.ycombinator.com/lists

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#685
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost certainly Linus didn't write his rants in order to gain some sort of sadistic pleasure I don't find that assertion convincing. I guess what would be called abusive by many was merely a "stern talking-to" to Linus. Which is why he needs therapy. It would be great if we would hold ourselves to higher standard of professionalism and stop apologizing for toxic behavior in software engineering. I've never seen anot…

> It would be great if we would hold ourselves to higher standard of professionalism and stop apologizing for toxic behavior in software engineering. Or we could take an alternative route, and collectively grow a thicker skin and show a bit more emotional maturity, instead of seeking offence in every situation. But then that's just my opinion. But that's the point, opinions differ.

Or we could take an alternative route, and collectively grow a thicker skin and show a bit more emotional maturity, instead of seeking offence in every situation.

No. I've been reading apologist nonsense like that for literally decades. I'm tired of being involved in an industry full of angry, frustrated manchildren who think that bitter vitriol is a signal for technical expertise.

Regarding "seeking offence in every situation" I'm inclined to think that you've never read one of Linus's ridiculous rants. If you have any you still think people are seeking offense, then there is quite literally something wrong with you.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#686

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people who are able to accomplish their goals by rallying others to their cause. Like Linus.

Certainly he has done far, far, far more good than bad. I don't think anybody feels otherwise. I would say he's something of a hero to me! He has certainly rallied many to his cause. As much good as he has done, could he do some things better? Linus certainly feels so. Interesting that so many here seem doubt Linus' own assertion.

Have you ever worked with brilliant assholes? It sucks the life out of you - and it really sucks when they get idolized and rewarded heavily.

It creates a vicious cycle of absurdity - the one where people appease the anger to try and achieve some good not realizing how much the bad influences the culture of the movement/organization/group.

No one is perfect, but the community for far to long treated an imperfect man as if he could do no wrong - to its own detriment. Not in quality of software, no one disputes that - but in quality of life and respect for other human beings and other views/ideas.

I think it's terrible we accept this idea that it takes an asshole to make a community

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#687
post #600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree with this. I actually quit my job at Red Hat because of the culture of non-criticism. I kept getting in trouble for pushing back against stupid decisions, even though I never insulted a single person. For example: When the design team added 10MB of web fonts to the app, I said something like, "Users don't care whether the font is Open Sans or Arial. They care whether things load quickly and don't re-f…

CoreOS was acquired several months ago. You feel you were able to accurately understand the culture of a corporation attempting to bring in CoreOS to the fold that quickly? And you are confused why co-workers would be less than pleased with public condemnation about a corporate project from someone who joined as an acquisition barely any time ago? If you truly can't put yourself in other's shoes and understand why th…

This is where civility culture annoys me. @ggreer provided a technical assessment of a platform and found it lacking. The only non-technical comment was that it was corporately mandated.

You have decided to recommend counselling.

Who of the two of you is being "uncivil"?

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#688
post #650
post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is anyone really rallied to the cause by Linus himself? I think the product is the only real draw. With the exception of a select few that simply want to work with someone as high profile and legendary as Linus.

Personally, and maybe I’m in the minority when thinking this, but I can’t stand working with polite people. They not only slow down the progress of a project by often causing unneeded busywork, from simply not halting bad ideas, they often slow my learning progress down by not telling me I’m wrong. If you see something stupid, call it out. If I’m doing something stupid or say something wrong, call me out! There’s obv…

Politeness should be low-cost. People going out of their way to make everything super nice are treating everyone as though they have fragile egos.

What people really want is to just know technically and precisely what is right and what is wrong so they can improve — leaving out all of the personal crap, positive and negative, except in the ways that people working together have normal human social relationships. So, like we can chat about our lives in downtime, water-cooler talk, and we can get to know one another. Extra politeness doesn't do that, it's just superficial.

This is what I'm saying: https://www.npr.org/2018/06/04/616127481/when-everything-cli...

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#689

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you are doing something no one else has done before, it can be very challenging to figure out which pieces of what you do are essential secret sauce and which could stand to be improved. I changed my HN handle from Mz to this one after more than 8 years and only after hitting the leaderboard. I appear to be the only woman to have ever spent time on the leaderboard. It genuinely took me that long to conclude that…

I'm somewhat intrigued by your comments about a leaderboard because I'm not familiar with it. Please say more about that. With regards to not having perspective, because he's so unique (or doing something unique), you may be right. I wonder if in fact he has been enabled for many years by his closest collaborators. People who should have said, "Hey Linus don't be a dick". There's a debate going on in Australia, about…

[deleted]

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#690

Linus's revelation kind of looks like he has been infected with "feels over reals" postmodernism. Not a good omen for engineering where reality needs to come first.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18001796 and marked it off-topic.
Post reply on HN