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Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

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Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#191

The other huge news here, both for Linux and for numerous other communities trying to make similar changes: The most recent commit, right before the release, deletes Linux's "Code of Conflict" and replaces it with a real Code of Conduct, the Contributor Covenant. https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/lin... https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/code-of-condu... Quoting the commit message:…

The Contributor Covenant is basically just a lot of publicity grabbing faux FOSS addition. I mean if you can't contribute code why simply mess around with things like the Code of Conduct.

why write tests? why improve ux or ui? why help with documentation?

> I mean if you can't contribute code why simply mess around with things like the Code of Conduct.

there are many more parts to a community, even a community of developers, than just contributing code.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People can be ruthless without being abusive. Linus had effectively ultimate power over the kernel for quite some time, so he could have said things like: "I disagree with this patch and I'm not going to merge it. It does these things wrong, and this line of reasoning makes no sense. Change these things and explain the reasoning behind this and I'll look at it again." Most of his rants that I've read could have been…

Simply not accepting poor patches isn't ruthlessness though. It's just doing your job. Ruthlessness is disregarding negative externalities (in this case, people's feelings) in pursuit of a goal. Abuse is just one tool among others. Almost certainly Linus didn't write his rants in order to gain some sort of sadistic pleasure (certainly to relieve his own frustration, however!) but he truly believed it was for the grea…

Almost certainly Linus didn't write his rants in order to gain some sort of sadistic pleasure

I don't find that assertion convincing.

I guess what would be called abusive by many was merely a "stern talking-to" to Linus.

Which is why he needs therapy.

It would be great if we would hold ourselves to higher standard of professionalism and stop apologizing for toxic behavior in software engineering. I've never seen another industry where abusive infighting is considered acceptable and necessary for success. It's almost worn as a badge of honor by people who -- more often than not -- aren't even that good.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#193
Oh dear. So they finally got to him. First Guido, now Linus. If some "nice person" would write a better free operating system I'd be all over it. But Linus is one of the people that has made it possible for me to not only run a free operating system, but the best system in the world. The people who criticise and attack Linus are the one who don't understand us. They don't understand what this software means to us.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#194

Can you explain what “left-leaning” has to do with it?

It's a bit difficult to explain, but I'll try.

In the current political climate, the left and the right have been divided by the public consciousness into the following dichotomy:

The left is overly sensitive and looks for things to be offended by.

The right is concerned with maturity and personal responsibility and anti-political correctness, where those things are defined primarily in contrast to the left's perceived over-sensitivity.

Simultaneously, there have been a lot of trends in various communities (software and otherwise) to formalize rules of conduct and push out people who are more naturally aggressive in tone.

Through that lens, this behavior has been seen as "left-leaning." So in contrast, the right-leaning behavior would be letting everyone behave as they want with the "free market of ideas" being the primary driving force for change rather than any set of enforced community standard. (You can see the parallel with the typically "conservative" economic perspective.)

I hope you can see the general trend.

So what the grandparent is saying is that it's not REALLY about left vs. right, without explicitly contradicting the beliefs of the common social consciousness.

Edit: The comment above that says, "Different people have very different beliefs what is to be considered 'heated', 'hateful' and 'treating well' or not" would be considered "right-leaning" through the common lens because it's implicitly positing that there shouldn't be a common set of community standards (with the implicit supposition that you CAN'T set a common set of community standards because there will always be people who disagree). Not picking on anyone, just using an available example.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly it's a well-crafted insult, I give him that

If this werea Shakespeare play, it would be. But in real life, we have to worry about being honest. And it's honestly not true that anyone who reads a byte at a time is too dumb to operate a nipple. All it means is that whoever did it doesn't know much about syscalls.

It will be remembered as well as Shakespeare play.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#196
Great. Everyone needs to work at being a nicer and better person, Linus perhaps a bit more than most.

But equally important is everyone on the other side working to avoid being consumed by emotion, and learn to control their emotions better, when people and things in the world end up being mean or distressing.

This doesn't happen so much with Linus anymore because everyone knows about him and the people most likely to go on tilt when Linus goes on tilt have adapted and avoid communicating with him. That would be a universal solution if you could get a list of all the potentially harsh communicators out there, but doesn't work at all when you don't have such a list, and anyway it would severely constrain your interactions with the world because a fairly large number of people are like that.

People will gain a lot more from, in addition to calmly pointing out how the hostility they're encountering is unwarranted, learning to self-reflect and switch mental states to avoid getting into self-destructive patterns of thought just because someone else or something else is being harsh or mean.

Various kinds of meditation-like practice seem to be a good way to pursue improvement for people on both sides of the problem.

It's not any easier for Linus to always be nice than it is for someone who takes personally one of his outbursts to not take it personally.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t like the whole “to make an omelette you have to break some eggs” excuse. If you can’t create something without hurting people then don’t create it. Yes everyone calling out LT being an asshat has been right, from day 1.

Sorry, I wasn't defending Linus at all, and I would not behave as he did. I was just saying that him changing his behavior doesn't prove anything about successful management techniques. Of course I'm not pro assholes :)

I was merely trying to make the point that if one measures the success of a manager by only what is produced and not by how people are managed then one made the same mistake Linus did.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Contributor Covenant is basically just a lot of publicity grabbing faux FOSS addition. I mean if you can't contribute code why simply mess around with things like the Code of Conduct.

why write tests? why improve ux or ui? why help with documentation? > I mean if you can't contribute code why simply mess around with things like the Code of Conduct. there are many more parts to a community, even a community of developers, than just contributing code.

>why write tests? why improve ux or ui? why help with documentation?

Because these actually improve the project.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#200
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People can be ruthless without being abusive. Everybody has a different conviction about what is abusive and what is not.

One of Linus's more colorful rants: "Of course, I'd also suggest that whoever was the genius who thought it was a good idea to read things ONE F CKING BYTE AT A TIME with system calls for each byte should be retroactively aborted. Who the f ck does idiotic things like that? How did they noty die as babies, considering that they were likely too stupid to find a tit to suck on?"

He's not wrong. That's pretty fucking dumb.
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