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Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

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Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#451

Post by DoreenMichele »

_8j50 wrote: post #439

If this was your typical org,Linus would be a lead developer and architect who is also the CTO. It is easy for me to criticize his behavior(and I don't agree with his rants) but it is also a difficult thing to be a leader. It would have been better if he got rid of the cult that alienates anyone who criticizes him. He is a perfect fit for the role but he should also be more tolerant of people who criticize his commun…

It would have been better if he got rid of the cult that alienates anyone who criticizes him

That's an incredibly tall order.

I've been popular in the past on various forums and, inevitably, any position I took became a polarizing case of "I'm on her side!" versus "I'm against her!" And I never found a good solution to that.

I spent some time making sure that people trying to "side" with me for pecking order bullshit reasons were handed their head publicly while being as civil as I could be to people whose disagreement seemed genuine and not just asshole behavior. It didn't work all that well, though.

I have spent a lot of years trying to sort out how to not wind up tangled up in mess of that sort. One solution that kind of worked: Be a big fat nobody.

Time will tell if I have my crap sorted enough to not wind up mired in that again should I ever gain any real popularity ever again. But I'm 53 and spent a lot of years living quietly and eschewing fame. Torvalds came to fame young and seems to not have the best social skills and that may not be something he can ever really fully sort on his own. It's not an easily resolved issue, from what I have seen of life, the universe and everything.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#452

Post by lgleason »

coffeemug wrote: post #176
serf wrote: post #142

I'm probably going to be alone in saying so, but I always enjoyed Linus and his attitude. (to me) it made him appear honest and dedicated to (his own) goals, and I always felt like that was respectable. (mostly) whenever he was proven technically wrong about how to do something he would concede to the technically better solution, and if he didn't do so he gave reasons for his conclusion. in other words : his technica…

Same. Linus always called a spade a spade, and I always respected that. In a culture where the Overton window has shrunk considerably and people habitually hide their thoughts, I think this kind of attitude is more important, not less. People give up ability to say certain things in the name of inclusion, and then lose ability to think those things in the first place. I'll take an asshole over a pushover any day, and…

Reality is more important than one's feelings which is why he has been effective in making linux what it is today. Throwing that out the window and caving to the postmodernist "feels" will not bode well for the project as a whole... and in the end the activists will try to find another reason to push him out of the project he founded even if he completely capitulates to them.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#453

Post by eric_h »

dotancohen wrote: post #318

Newton was an asshole too. The whole "apple fell on his head" story came about because he was so mean to people. I won't say that most geniuses are inempathetic, but many are. Einstein wasn't, some say Gauss was. Beethoven was. Linus is. And we'll accept Linus's attitude for being an aversion to bullshit, just the quality that we need in a kernel maintainer. I'm glad to see that Linus finally realizes that he has a p…

Newton was an asshole in an era when men being assholes was, in essence, acceptable. There is no evidence that being an asshole is a requirement for being a successful innovator or leader.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#454

Post by kadendogthing »

Ws32ok wrote: post #256
DC-3 wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The contributor covenant is fairly in-objectionable. Yes, the list of 'privileges' is a bit of a checklist for left-wing soapboxes, but it's not necessarily a bad thing to explicitly list traits commonly targeted by bullies and harassers. The problem many people have with it, as you imply, is that it's the thin end of a doorstop, at the thick end of which is the Post-Meritocracy Manifesto: https://postmeritocracy.org…

Just one example from that manifesto: “We have an ethical responsibility to refuse to work on software that will negatively impact the well-being of other people.” This a terrible slippery slope. It eliminates any military, security or even anything useful. A thief’s well-being is meant to be negatively impacted by a security measure. A guidance system in a missile is intended to negatively impact the well-being of t…

> It eliminates any military, security or even anything useful.

Haha, I love the implicit signaling you're doing. I mean not only is it just not true but your qualifications for "useful" and "not useful" are really stupid.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#455

Post by boxspam »

herpderperator wrote: post #122

While I am glad this happened, I am surprised. I truly would not have expected Linus to ever write something like this. I am curious how this can happen so suddenly. Have people not tried to convince him that he can be critical without being insulting many times before? What was different this time?

Maybe he realized that his behavior would be against the new CoC.

Maybe he had a good conversation with people he respects, where they confronted him with his behavior, and he was finally able to view his behavior through the lens of an outsider.

Maybe he finally found and realized the "bugs" in his social interaction code and needs some time of to improve his mental tools.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#456

Post by farazbabar »

microcolonel wrote: post #325
JoshTriplett wrote: post #276

Take a look at the chart in https://twitter.com/ErynnBrook/status/1038893975279550465 Many people are so afraid of ending up in the bottom right (just giving in) that they head for the top left (zero-sum competition). This underlies some of the things people fear about codes of conduct; they're afraid that they're being pushed into that bottom right corner, rather than striving for better collaboration. Be direct. Be…

The problem here is that the "Collaborating" sector is the wrong goal for the Linux kernel. Linus Torvalds is uniquely qualified to be concerned about matters concerning the kernel; if his interlocutors "win" too much on their side of the "win/win", every user loses. The public embarrassment of lazy and dishonest actors, especially those who are paid to collaborate, is an effective tool for maintaining order and stan…

I think this can be further generalized, that there is a tier of talent that we must excuse from having to filter themselves and that this may serve humanity even if it rubs some the wrong way.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#458

Post by eloff »

Agreeableness in general is negatively correlated with career success. Have you noticed that Fortune 500 CEOs tend to be extremely disagreeable, to the point of psychopathy in some cases. At the risk of sticking my neck out, it's also one of the many reasons for the gender pay gap, woman are more agreeable than men. And you have to be somewhat disagreeable to stand up for yourself and demand a raise (or quit and seek a better paying job.) But on the average it's a relatively smallish difference and only accounts for a small part of the pay gap. The biggest component of the pay gap is the difference between mothers and non-mothers. I've heard it said that woman who are not mothers earn 95 cents to every dollar a man earns. But I don't have a source on hand, so take that with a grain of salt.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#459

Post by roenxi »

moosingin3space wrote: post #366
microcolonel wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem here is that the "Collaborating" sector is the wrong goal for the Linux kernel. Linus Torvalds is uniquely qualified to be concerned about matters concerning the kernel; if his interlocutors "win" too much on their side of the "win/win", every user loses. The public embarrassment of lazy and dishonest actors, especially those who are paid to collaborate, is an effective tool for maintaining order and stan…

> Linus Torvalds is uniquely qualified Gotta stop you right there. Hero worship should not be considered a good thing in our industry. The kernel subsystem maintainers, who actually review the code prior to getting it merged, are the ones with the real power and the necessary knowledge, and I'd argue they are more qualified to oversee the project's future than Torvalds.

What makes Torvalds uniquely qualified is he is:

1) Technically capable of maintaining the kernel

2) Known to be mainly motivated by technical concerns

If you role the dice with another governance structure, you might get one that is motivated by "collaboration" and then the integrity of the kernel might get compromised by corporate interests. We have no idea how the subsystem maintainers would deal with the politics of a situation without Linus calling shots. We know how Torvalds reacts; rudely :P.

The choice isn't ever going to be Torvalds vs. Sunshine & Roses, the choice is Torvalds vs. Unknown. Because of that, he is practically (but not technically) unique.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#460

Post by pishpash »

eric_h wrote: post #453
dotancohen wrote: post #318

Newton was an asshole too. The whole "apple fell on his head" story came about because he was so mean to people. I won't say that most geniuses are inempathetic, but many are. Einstein wasn't, some say Gauss was. Beethoven was. Linus is. And we'll accept Linus's attitude for being an aversion to bullshit, just the quality that we need in a kernel maintainer. I'm glad to see that Linus finally realizes that he has a p…

Newton was an asshole in an era when men being assholes was, in essence, acceptable. There is no evidence that being an asshole is a requirement for being a successful innovator or leader.

It takes effort to be not be an asshole because you have to expend energy to model and simulate the feelings of others outside of you. That's an objective fact. Being a genius may require not expending such energy.

Of course there are other geniuses that find things easy and they behave very nicely, but then they may not be reaching their "true" potential, heh.

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