Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off • Hacker News Board

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#281

Post by JoshTriplett » Sun, Sep 16, 2018, 10:44 PM UTC

blazespin wrote: post #269

jakeinspace wrote: post #257

Linus is stubborn, persistent, and unyielding to what he sees as bullshit. These I believe are all very valuable qualities for the head of a massive software project, and may be part of the reason as to why Linux is where it is today. However, Linus is also a bit of an asshole, turning technical criticism into personal seemingly personal attacks. I believe those 2 sets of qualities are separable, but I would guess it…

The key, I find, is to be extremely direct and brutal in one on ones. Don't hold back, but be very supportive and positive when more than two people present. I try to explain this to be people I work with, but I don't think everyone appreciates it. Horrible people, in my opinion, are those that do the opposite.

So, being nicer when someone else is watching and could corroborate, while being brutal to people when it's your word against theirs?

I wonder why people don't appreciate that advice.

"Direct" does not need to go hand-in-hand with "brutal". Don't change your behavior based on who's watching; people deserve to be treated well regardless.

EDIT: For clarity, I'm not necessarily suggesting this is the intention, but rather, that this would be the net effect, and a problem with that approach.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#282

Post by nige123 » Sun, Sep 16, 2018, 10:44 PM UTC

Linux was named after Linus.

Linus admits that he named "git" after himself too. At least he had some self-awareness of his own "git"-ishness.

Trump, for example, is too far along the narcissistic spectrum to even feign humility.

The software industry is sadly plagued by empathy-free, narcissistic gits.

It's sad - Why?

Empathy is actually essential for creating good software (and good leadership too) - we write software for humans not computers.

Trump is sadly too far gone to show real empathy. Linus may be too ... but at least he's seeking help.

Peace Linus - I hope you find your true empathic self.

More empathy in the development of Linux would be truly great (and not in the Trump sense).

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#283

Post by grzm » Sun, Sep 16, 2018, 10:44 PM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #270

grzm wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a straw man meant to excuse bad behavior as the only way to provide strong direction. Pushovers are not the under discussion here: Torvalds’ behavior is.

Or perhaps an acknowledgement that people are imperfect and the world is imperfect and, if you want to accomplish things, x all-too-common defect is preferable to y all-too-common defect.

In other contexts, perhaps. I don’t read the comment I initially replied to as supporting that interpretation, even reading charitably. They explicitly separate people into (primarily) two groups: "I'll take an asshole over a pushover any day, and most of us are pushovers."

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#284

Post by notacoward » Sun, Sep 16, 2018, 10:45 PM UTC

another-cuppa wrote: post #193

Oh dear. So they finally got to him. First Guido, now Linus. If some "nice person" would write a better free operating system I'd be all over it. But Linus is one of the people that has made it possible for me to not only run a free operating system, but the best system in the world. The people who criticise and attack Linus are the one who don't understand us. They don't understand what this software means to us.

> The people who criticise and attack Linus are the one who don't understand us.

Who is "us" exactly, and how exactly are "we" hurt by this change?

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#285

Post by stinkytaco » Sun, Sep 16, 2018, 10:45 PM UTC

iherbig wrote: post #194

briandear wrote: post #159

Can you explain what “left-leaning” has to do with it?

It's a bit difficult to explain, but I'll try. In the current political climate, the left and the right have been divided by the public consciousness into the following dichotomy: The left is overly sensitive and looks for things to be offended by. The right is concerned with maturity and personal responsibility and anti-political correctness, where those things are defined primarily in contrast to the left's perceiv…

> The left is overly sensitive and looks for things to be offended by.

>The right is concerned with maturity and personal responsibility and anti-political correctness, where those things are defined primarily in contrast to the left's perceived over-sensitivity.

Judging by how the right gets upset by nfl player protests, the news media or what they feel is the "forced inclusion" approach, I disagree with the above statement. Everyone wants to get offended because if you can claim victimhood, you can claim moral high ground (sometimes legitimately and sometimes not). This is why codes of conduct are important. It's harder to claim to be the victim when personal feelings and identity are kept out of it.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#286

Post by azernik » Sun, Sep 16, 2018, 10:46 PM UTC

jakeinspace wrote: post #257

Linus is stubborn, persistent, and unyielding to what he sees as bullshit. These I believe are all very valuable qualities for the head of a massive software project, and may be part of the reason as to why Linux is where it is today. However, Linus is also a bit of an asshole, turning technical criticism into personal seemingly personal attacks. I believe those 2 sets of qualities are separable, but I would guess it…

I think there's a delicate way to be both "firm" and "polite" - and that's to not be pretend to be "agreeable", but rather to separate the firmness on technical issues from politeness on personal description. That is, to say "this code is awful" while also a) going out of your way to praise the things co-workers/subordinates do well, and b) when it is appropriate to make general judgments on their performance, make it clear that they are appreciated.

The core of the idea of someone being "passive-aggressive" is the idea that you never know where you stand with someone; if you're very clear about what things you're unhappy about and also what you're happy about, that's less of a concern.

For specific structures, I've often heard people involved in military leadership describe a formula of "praise-criticise-praise", which seems to be an attempt to run this balancing act on a personal level. "Whew, this was a big project you got done! This bit of code is absolutely bonkers. Everything other than that looks great to me, though."

Another technique is to make sure that people hear things from you not just when you're annoyed about something, but also when you're impressed. (Or, when you're not super impressed, talk up their areas of basic competence.) That gives you more leeway to criticize bluntly without impacting morale, and also makes people more eager to please. (Yes, a lot of leadership practices are manipulative as hell. Try to manipulate people without destroying their mental health and happiness please, that's super abusive and also counter-productive.)

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#287

Post by DoreenMichele » Sun, Sep 16, 2018, 10:46 PM UTC

grzm wrote: post #283

DoreenMichele wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or perhaps an acknowledgement that people are imperfect and the world is imperfect and, if you want to accomplish things, x all-too-common defect is preferable to y all-too-common defect.

In other contexts, perhaps. I don’t read the comment I initially replied to as supporting that interpretation, even reading charitably. They explicitly separate people into (primarily) two groups: "I'll take an asshole over a pushover any day, and most of us are pushovers."

Well, that's exactly what I see in the comment in question.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#288

Post by DannyBee » Sun, Sep 16, 2018, 10:46 PM UTC

serf wrote: post #142

I'm probably going to be alone in saying so, but I always enjoyed Linus and his attitude. (to me) it made him appear honest and dedicated to (his own) goals, and I always felt like that was respectable. (mostly) whenever he was proven technically wrong about how to do something he would concede to the technically better solution, and if he didn't do so he gave reasons for his conclusion. in other words : his technica…

"in other words : his technical brilliance, in my own opinion, was a far larger boon than the problems stemming from having to deal with his knife-like personality."

One thing that is true in all successful organizations over time is that for any given person, no amount of genius will make up for being an asshole.

It may take time, etc, but eventually, it ends up a significant net negative for the organization.

The sooner folks are forced to deal with it, the better off the organization ends up in the long run.

It also turns out you can be effective at dealing with people and still be brilliant, and it usually doesn't take a lot more than spending more energy in being self aware and trying to see the perspectives of others.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#289

Post by merpnderp » Sun, Sep 16, 2018, 10:48 PM UTC

zemo wrote: post #267

tomp wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. I liked his rants, I found them entertaining, and I wish I was the target of one! (I would probably need to work on my coding skills first.) I wish people would grow thicker skins and get more emotionally mature, and be able to tolerate harsh words without taking them personally.

ignoring your emotions and the emotions of others and seeing all of life as an exercise of pure rationalism is not emotional maturity, it's emotional cowardice.

Parent didn’t say ignore them. I’m pretty sure they meant not be an emotional child completely incapable of surviving the slings and arrows of life. Rule your emotions instead of being ruled by them.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#290

Post by notacoward » Sun, Sep 16, 2018, 10:49 PM UTC

HaoZeke wrote: post #174

cowmoo728 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People can be ruthless without being abusive. Linus had effectively ultimate power over the kernel for quite some time, so he could have said things like: "I disagree with this patch and I'm not going to merge it. It does these things wrong, and this line of reasoning makes no sense. Change these things and explain the reasoning behind this and I'll look at it again." Most of his rants that I've read could have been…

Bull. His rants were meant to make people work harder. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Then why would he change? What evidence do you have that he would agree with your interpretation? It seems like you're making excuses for someone who has just rather emphatically eschewed them. That makes no sense, unless you're really making excuses for someone else.