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Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

lore.kernel.org

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Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#171

Post by HaoZeke »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #106

The other huge news here, both for Linux and for numerous other communities trying to make similar changes: The most recent commit, right before the release, deletes Linux's "Code of Conflict" and replaces it with a real Code of Conduct, the Contributor Covenant. https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/lin... https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/code-of-condu... Quoting the commit message:…

The Contributor Covenant is basically just a lot of publicity grabbing faux FOSS addition. I mean if you can't contribute code why simply mess around with things like the Code of Conduct.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#172

Post by HaoZeke »

d33 wrote: post #8

> I am going to take time off and get some assistance on how to understand people’s emotions and respond appropriately. Wow. Torvalds going to a therapy. I seriously couldn't be more impressed about him, because he always seemed too much of a narcissist to me. I understand how difficult it might be to decide to admit that you have a problem at this stage. And for doing that, he has my deep respect. Which kind of brin…

> Wow. Torvalds going to a therapy. I seriously couldn't be more impressed about him, because he always seemed too much of a narcissist to me. I understand how difficult it might be to decide to admit that you have a problem at this stage. And for doing that, he has my deep respect.

Neat, so now we're trolling on Linus.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#173

Post by craftyguy »

vertline3 wrote: post #65
craftyguy wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He specifically said he wasn't burned out. I agree that he does sound frustrated, though maybe with himself more than with any particular folks.

Yeah maybe I took it from when he said he had been attending a conference for 20 years and was hoping he didn't have to. He does say he loves the project and wants to continue and compared it to when he developed git

Ah good point, yea I can see how you could come to that conclusion. I understood that to mean that perhaps he felt like he wouldn't be missed (i.e. they would be able to manage without him).

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#174

Post by HaoZeke »

cowmoo728 wrote: post #54
Sharlin wrote: post #29

A certain sort of ruthlessness and lack of empathy, accompanied by having an extraordinarily driven personality, certainly seems to often make things happen (see also: Steve Jobs). The ages-old question is – is it worth it? Do ends justify the means?

People can be ruthless without being abusive. Linus had effectively ultimate power over the kernel for quite some time, so he could have said things like: "I disagree with this patch and I'm not going to merge it. It does these things wrong, and this line of reasoning makes no sense. Change these things and explain the reasoning behind this and I'll look at it again." Most of his rants that I've read could have been…

Bull. His rants were meant to make people work harder. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#175

Post by HaoZeke »

blindwatchmaker wrote: post #47
Sharlin wrote: post #29

A certain sort of ruthlessness and lack of empathy, accompanied by having an extraordinarily driven personality, certainly seems to often make things happen (see also: Steve Jobs). The ages-old question is – is it worth it? Do ends justify the means?

People have been able to build successful organizations without being abrasive dickheads to their colleagues and subordinates all the time. I think it's a false dichotomy.

Honestly though, LINUX IS FOSS. FOSS DEVELOPERS BURN OUT. PEOPLE ARE CRAZY. Give the guy a break.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#176

Post by coffeemug »

serf wrote: post #142

I'm probably going to be alone in saying so, but I always enjoyed Linus and his attitude. (to me) it made him appear honest and dedicated to (his own) goals, and I always felt like that was respectable. (mostly) whenever he was proven technically wrong about how to do something he would concede to the technically better solution, and if he didn't do so he gave reasons for his conclusion. in other words : his technica…

Same. Linus always called a spade a spade, and I always respected that. In a culture where the Overton window has shrunk considerably and people habitually hide their thoughts, I think this kind of attitude is more important, not less. People give up ability to say certain things in the name of inclusion, and then lose ability to think those things in the first place.

I'll take an asshole over a pushover any day, and most of us are pushovers.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#178

Post by zorpner »

wolfgke wrote: post #160
tom_ wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the really interesting part of introducing a code of conduct to me: that it flushes a particular type of person out of the woodwork. They are forced to reveal themselves. Forced . It's like you're playing one of those hidden role games, and suddenly you do something that means people have to reveal their concealed cards. It's almost magical.

> This is the really interesting part of introducing a code of conduct to me: that it flushes a particular type of person out of the woodwork. They are forced to reveal themselves. Forced. It's like you're playing one of those hidden role games, and suddenly you do something that means people have to reveal their concealed cards. It's almost magical. So you advocate a witch hunt against these people?!

As always, the people fighting against codes of conduct manage to explicitly prove the need for them.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#179

Post by geezerjay »

trjordan wrote: post #27
Nasrudith wrote: post #16

A slowgoing development for him, still I sympathize and wish him the best while wondering ironically if personal issues aside what works best. It brings to mind fundamental organizational and management. Is it better to have a "rude" organization? Calling bullshit early and often instead of polite everything is fine stacks of lies since it would be impolite to point out having O(N!) code just can't work for anything…

"Given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow." - Linus Torvalds A rude leader drives people away from the organization. It is directly counterproductive.

> It is directly counterproductive.

Linux is by far the most successful floss project in the history of mankind. God knows there are plenty of floss OS projects out there, most of which have far nicer leaders but a small fraction of the success. Either you're overplaying the effect on productivity or the relevance of being nice.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#180

Post by Ricardus »

I use and love linux, and have read many things about Linus being abusive and what not. I am on the spectrum and wasn't diagnosed til my 40s. Looking back on my earlier adult years, I was described as abrasive, obnoxious, and many others.

I tend not to suffer fools lightly, but somehow, on my own have learned better self-editing skills. Hopefully Linus will figure this out, because it truly will benefit everyone in the community.

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